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Coherence Domain in Living System

by rodsika
Tags: coherence, domain, living
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rodsika
#1
Jan27-12, 07:42 PM
P: 275
(note: I posted this here instead of the Biology forum because the topic involves heavy quantum concepts that mere biologists can't handle)

I read PF Mentor Ryan_m_b mentioned elsewhere that "Discussing quantum effects in biology is not a banned topic on this forum, however threads that degenerate into discussions that link quantum mind theories with solutions to the hard problem of consciousness do so with no basis especially when they link to people who claim that quantum minds prove some aspect of spirituality."

I understand the above and forum rules. And so the materials I'm presenting doesn't have to do with mind theories. These were the original research by Del Giudice and other biophysicists that started these quantum coherence thing in living system, therefore if we want to debunk the idea once and for all. We need to see their original work, understand it and shatter it from there. Dozens of Del Giudice works are peer reviewed but we don't have access to all of them, but the following two will suffice. Hope someone can read them, comment and once and for all state whether these have any basis, if not, then years from now.. these would vanish.. or if ignored, it would spread into the next generation. Remember these were where it all began.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.0275.pdf
http://www.bion.si/gradiva-objave/Del_Giudice.pdf

I want to know. Are coherence domain in living systems real? If not. What is the error in Del Giudice analysis? Hope someone can settle this once and for all. Thanks.
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rodsika
#2
Jan28-12, 07:33 PM
P: 275
Quote Quote by rodsika View Post
(note: I posted this here instead of the Biology forum because the topic involves heavy quantum concepts that mere biologists can't handle)

I read PF Mentor Ryan_m_b mentioned elsewhere that "Discussing quantum effects in biology is not a banned topic on this forum, however threads that degenerate into discussions that link quantum mind theories with solutions to the hard problem of consciousness do so with no basis especially when they link to people who claim that quantum minds prove some aspect of spirituality."

I understand the above and forum rules. And so the materials I'm presenting doesn't have to do with mind theories. These were the original research by Del Giudice and other biophysicists that started these quantum coherence thing in living system, therefore if we want to debunk the idea once and for all. We need to see their original work, understand it and shatter it from there. Dozens of Del Giudice works are peer reviewed but we don't have access to all of them, but the following two will suffice. Hope someone can read them, comment and once and for all state whether these have any basis, if not, then years from now.. these would vanish.. or if ignored, it would spread into the next generation. Remember these were where it all began.

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.0275.pdf
http://www.bion.si/gradiva-objave/Del_Giudice.pdf

I want to know. Are coherence domain in living systems real? If not. What is the error in Del Giudice analysis? Hope someone can settle this once and for all. Thanks.
Let's focus on Herbert Fröhlich. Anyone familiar with this guy? What is wrong with his theories?

Quoting a few lines from the second paper above:

"It has been believed for long time that biological dynamics should be accounted for by classical
physics, but this conceptual frame, as stressed by Herbert Fröhlich, cannot explain the space-time order existing in living matter as well as the selectivity of biocomponent interaction, the low impedance and, last but not least, the thermal paradox pointed out by Bockris and Khan (Bockris and Kahn, 1993)."

<jumped>

"The above requirement however is not compatible with the tenets of classical physics. Why
molecules should move in unison, tune together their oscillations, respond as an unique bloc to
external perturbations ? Just this question prompted Herbert Fröhlich (Fröhlich, 1968) to introduce quantum physics as the theoretical tool for biology and to put coherence, namely the property of an assembly of elementary components of having the same rhythm of oscillation, the same phase, at the centre of biological dynamics. In classical physics any object demands"

Can anyone comment on this in details why they don't agree with him (or agree if you do)?
questionpost
#3
Jan28-12, 07:43 PM
P: 198
I think there's no agreeable basis or really any evidence to support the explanations for what makes living things living things other than the few which we can recognize something as a living thing which even gets fuzzy when describing AIs since it can process information in the same way as living things but doesn't grow or evolve or etc. Our definition of if something is actually a living thing isn't even something that everyone agrees on and we can't even measure consciousness itself.
Because of this, any explanation for how the properties of life that come into play with our current understanding of science is just purely a guess. We just don't have enough info to determine much.

rodsika
#4
Jan28-12, 11:37 PM
P: 275
Coherence Domain in Living System

Quote Quote by questionpost View Post
I think there's no agreeable basis or really any evidence to support the explanations for what makes living things living things other than the few which we can recognize something as a living thing which even gets fuzzy when describing AIs since it can process information in the same way as living things but doesn't grow or evolve or etc. Our definition of if something is actually a living thing isn't even something that everyone agrees on and we can't even measure consciousness itself.
Because of this, any explanation for how the properties of life that come into play with our current understanding of science is just purely a guess. We just don't have enough info to determine much.
This has nothing to do with consciousness. Let's not talk about consciousness lest this thread be locked. We are talking about quantum effects in biology.. which could be just extended function of the biochemistry and nothing to do with consciousness.

I hope someone can share what really are Coherence Domain. The thing is that if the wavelength is fixed by the size of the coherence region, then frequency becomes proportional to the velocity. Thus, any velocity that the system will support will generate its corresponding frequency. That is, the system has become fractal. It is this fractality which couples effects in the optical spectrum to microwave- to radio- to acoustic- to biological- frequencies. If there was not a duality between the chemical bond and frequency, spectroscopic analysis would be impossible. It is coherence which links the chemical to the biological frequencies and all the other frequencies and couples effects originating in widely differing parts of the spectrum. So if Del Giudice stuff is true. Anything in the environment with frequency like that of power lines and cellular phones can affect biology in non-ionizing way and non-thermal way.
questionpost
#5
Jan29-12, 10:02 AM
P: 198
Quote Quote by rodsika View Post
This has nothing to do with consciousness. Let's not talk about consciousness lest this thread be locked. We are talking about quantum effects in biology.. which could be just extended function of the biochemistry and nothing to do with consciousness.

I hope someone can share what really are Coherence Domain. The thing is that if the wavelength is fixed by the size of the coherence region, then frequency becomes proportional to the velocity. Thus, any velocity that the system will support will generate its corresponding frequency. That is, the system has become fractal. It is this fractality which couples effects in the optical spectrum to microwave- to radio- to acoustic- to biological- frequencies. If there was not a duality between the chemical bond and frequency, spectroscopic analysis would be impossible. It is coherence which links the chemical to the biological frequencies and all the other frequencies and couples effects originating in widely differing parts of the spectrum. So if Del Giudice stuff is true. Anything in the environment with frequency like that of power lines and cellular phones can affect biology in non-ionizing way and non-thermal way.
The macroscopic world is built from QM, but QM deals with such a small realm that it will take a lot more than this to explain everything, and I've never even heard of fractal symmetry in QM before.


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