Conservation of Momentum: Union & Separation Law

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conservation of momentum, particularly in the context of a ballistic pendulum test. Participants explore the implications of momentum conservation during union and separation events, as well as the role of external forces in these scenarios. The conversation touches on related concepts such as energy conservation and the differences between elastic and inelastic collisions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that momentum is conserved in a ballistic pendulum test, but question what is conserved when the pendulum comes to rest.
  • Others propose that momentum is transferred to the stand and then to the Earth during the pendulum's motion.
  • Some participants agree on the principle that momentum before an event equals momentum after, while noting that energy conservation operates differently.
  • One participant suggests that conservation of momentum applies primarily at the moments of union and separation, while other laws govern motion outside these instances.
  • Concerns are raised about the role of external forces, such as gravity, in affecting momentum conservation.
  • Some participants express confusion about the necessity of using conservation of momentum in calculations involving ballistic pendulums, questioning why energy conservation alone isn't sufficient.
  • It is noted that inelastic collisions result in kinetic energy not being conserved, with energy being transformed into heat and sound.
  • A later reply clarifies that applying conservation of momentum is ideal for analyzing collisions where no external forces are involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that momentum is conserved in the absence of external forces, but there is no consensus on the broader applicability of momentum conservation in various scenarios. Multiple competing views exist regarding the relationship between momentum and energy conservation, particularly in the context of collisions.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the conditions under which conservation laws apply, particularly regarding the influence of external forces and the nature of collisions (elastic vs. inelastic). There are also unresolved questions about the necessity of using momentum conservation in specific problem-solving contexts.

azizlwl
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In a ballistic pendulum test, the mv is added to the system and that total remains constant over time. This what conservation of Momentum states. But at the end of the swing velocity is zero. Thus no momentum. What is conserved here?

As in energy total energy always remains the same. In momentum its nor true even in ordinary motion with resistance, the velocity decreases thus momentum.
To me it is just a Law of Union/Separation. After Union/Separation its not use/applicable.
 
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The momentum is transferred into the stand and then into the earth.
 
Thank you aziz and khashishi ,I agree with both of your answers with what everyone may know that momentum is conserved.With a rule that states that "momentum before is equal to momentum after".
If anyone is inquiring about energy then the rules that YES energy is also conserved but in a different form.
 
YES it is.The rules states that momentum before is equal to momentum after.√
 
Thank you. I mean here i see the Conservation of Momentum only applies to union and separation of items. In other instances other laws apply. When a body moves, it follows the Newton's first Law. When a body moves and changes direction or/and magnitude, Newton 2nd law is used and sometimes we use KE and PE, conservation of energy.

Thus COM only applies only JUST before the union/separation and JUST after that.
Conservation law should be at any instances/places.
 
Conservation of momentum holds only as long as there is no "exernal" force. The force of gravity is an external force.
 
Khashishi said:
The momentum is transferred into the stand and then into the earth.

Yes. As the pendulum rocks back and forth, the Earth rocks back and forth in the opposite direction. Momentum is always conserved, at all times.
 
HallsofIvy said:
Conservation of momentum holds only as long as there is no "exernal" force. The force of gravity is an external force.

Thank you
I agree that with no external force, means there's no change in momentum. Total sum of momentum remains constant.
I still cannot figure out why we need conservation of momentum in solving eg. ballistic pendulum.
Initial mv=final mv then we get velocity. Then KE to PE.
Why not just KE incoming bullet to PE without resorting to COM if we assume no energy expended in the process(I've been making this error frequently). Conservation of energy is intuitively easy for accept.
 
azizlwl said:
Thank you
I agree that with no external force, means there's no change in momentum. Total sum of momentum remains constant.
I still cannot figure out why we need conservation of momentum in solving eg. ballistic pendulum.
Initial mv=final mv then we get velocity. Then KE to PE.
Why not just KE incoming bullet to PE without resorting to COM if we assume no energy expended in the process(I've been making this error frequently). Conservation of energy is intuitively easy for accept.

But a lot of energy is expended in the process. When the bullet collides with the pendulum, it sticks to the pendulum, and that's an inelastic collision. Kinetic energy is not conserved. Most of the kinetic energy of the bullet is turned into heat and a little of it is turned into sound.
 
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ok now i understand why we have to resort to COM.

In a collision,

[itex]mv_{in}=mv_{out}[/itex] where no external forces involve.

[itex]KE_{in}\geq KE_{out}[/itex]

So applying COM is the most ideal transformation for a collision.
 

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