Is There a Reactive Force on Radiant Electromagnetic Energy?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter Philalethes
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Force Radiation
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the concept of reactive forces associated with radiant electromagnetic energy, particularly in the context of classical mechanics and electrostatics. Participants explore whether there is a reaction force on radiant energy when it interacts with charged particles, and how this might affect the energy and behavior of the electromagnetic waves involved. The conversation touches on theoretical implications, scattering phenomena, and classical radiation formulas.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Philalethes questions whether radiant electromagnetic energy experiences a reaction force similar to that predicted by Coulomb's law for charged particles, and how this might manifest in terms of energy loss or changes in motion.
  • One participant provides a simulation of field lines for a moving charge, suggesting that changes in velocity lead to kinks in the field lines, which may indicate energy radiation as a pulsed transverse electromagnetic field.
  • Another participant introduces the Larmor formula for radiated power from a decelerating charged particle, noting that this radiation moves away at the speed of light.
  • Philalethes references a document discussing energy conservation in light scattering, expressing curiosity about the mechanisms behind energy loss in light as it interacts with atoms.
  • One participant draws parallels between scattering light off an atom and Thomson scattering, providing a mathematical derivation for wavelength shifts in scattering events, while also clarifying misconceptions about which part of the atom is radiating.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying viewpoints on the existence and implications of reactive forces on radiant electromagnetic energy. There is no consensus on the mechanisms involved or the effects of these forces, indicating that multiple competing views remain in the discussion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes references to classical mechanics, scattering phenomena, and specific formulas, but does not resolve the underlying assumptions about the nature of electromagnetic interactions or the definitions of terms used.

Philalethes
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Hello,

In electrostatics, classical mechanics predicts that a charged particle's action-at-a-distance force (Coulomb's law) on other charges is accompanied by an equal and opposite reaction force on the particle.

Classically, radiant electromagnetic energy is a self-propagating electromagnetic field; therefore, must there likewise be a reaction force on this radiant energy resulting from its action on charged particles? If so, how would this reaction manifest? Would this mean a decrease in energy of the radiant EM energy? Does it slow down? Change its path? Is it explainable without significant explanation of special relativity or any QED?

Thanks,
Philalethes
 
Science news on Phys.org
You may be interesed in a simulation of the field lines of a moving point charge, using the Cal Tech simulation tool at http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/MovingCharge/MovingCharge.html
The first panel shows the field lines of a charge moving at a velocity β = 0.5 from the left to the right. The field lines are straight, and slightly compressed toward the 90 degree line (due to length contraction along direction of motion). The lines move out away from the charge at β=1 in the reference frame of the observer.

In the second panel, a charge moving at β = 0.5 is suddenly decelerated to β = 0.225. This produced a kink in the field lines, which also radiates out away from the moving charge at β = 1 in the reference frame of the observer. Any observer at a distance [itex]\ell[/itex] from the particle will see a retarded signal at delayed time [itex]\delta t = \ell / c \space[/itex].

So the E field lines for a constant velocity charge are a longitudinal E field (i.e., radial), while the E field in the kink of the decelerated charge is transverse. Does this mean that the lost energy is being radiated as a pulsed TEM field?

Here is the caption to the applet
When the charge moves at relativistic speed, the electric field is concentrated near the pole, and consequently the field lines are shifted. The field lines always point to where the charge is at that instant, if we are within the current sphere of information. If that charge has changed speed or direction within a time t < r/c, where r is the distance away, and c is the speed of light, we will not know that charge has accelerated, and the field lines will still point to where the charge would be if it hadn't changed speed or direction.

Notice That when the charge is accelerated, because the field lines must be continuous, it is forced in a direction almost perpendicular to the the direction of propagation. As time goes on, the line becomes more and more perpendicular, the horizontal component increasing faster than the vertical component. Associated with this electric field is a magnetic field, perpendicular to the electric field and the direction of propagation, which describes light.
 

Attachments

  • Moving_charge1.jpg
    Moving_charge1.jpg
    26.1 KB · Views: 440
Last edited:
The classical radiation (radiated power) from a decelerating charged particle is given by
[tex]\frac{dW}{dt}=-\frac{e^2 \dot v^2}{6 \pi \epsilon_o c^3}[/tex]
where [itex]\dot v[/itex] is the acceleration. This radiation moves away from the charged particle at β = 1.
See Panofsky and Phillips Classical Electricity and Magnetism page 301.
 
Thank you Bob, for pointing me toward the Larmor formula. I found this document from the Wikipedia article about it. In section 5.2, he uses the example of blue light scattering in the atmosphere as a demonstration of energy conservation as light passes by an atom, but declines to explain the exact mechanism behind the decrease in energy of the light! (See attachment screenshot of the PDF)

I'm looking over your first post again to see if the answer is contained therein...
 

Attachments

  • light.PNG
    light.PNG
    61.8 KB · Views: 457
Kinematically, scattering light off of an atom is just like Thomson scattering off of a single electron, which is the classical limit of Compton scattering. Look specifically at the derivation of this formula for the wavelength shift in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compton_scattering
[tex]\lambda'-\lambda=\frac{h}{mc}\left(1-\cos\theta \right)[/tex]
where m is the mass of the electron and θ is the scattering angle. In Rayleigh scattering, the recoil mass is the entire atom, so let's cosider scattering at 90 degrees. We have
[tex]\lambda'-\lambda=\frac{h}{Mc}=\frac{hc}{Mc^2}[/tex]
Using hc = 4.136x 10-15 eV-sec x 3 x 1010cm/sec = 1.24 x 10-4 eV -cm, and Mc2=1.3 x 1010 eV for a nitrogen atom, we get

[tex]\lambda'-\lambda=\frac{hc}{Mc^2} = \frac{1.24 x 10^{-4} eV \cdot cm}{1.3x10^{10} eV}=9.5 x 10^{-15}cm = 9.5 x 10^{-7} Angstroms[/tex]
So there is a wavelength shift, but it is very small.

Incidentally, the author of the paper you referenced implied that the nucleus was moving and radiating. It is actually the electron cloud that is moving and radiating.
 
Thanks! Thomson scattering describes what I was looking for.


Philalethes
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
1K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K