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Old Feb9-05, 01:44 PM       Last edited by setAI; Feb9-05 at 01:51 PM..            #1
setAI

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The "Third Road" to Quantum Gravity

I have been thinking lately about where the search for Quantum Gravity may be headed in the near future and it has struck me that the LHC is going to be a major pivot point in the future of research- if they are able to observe micro black-holes with the LHC- it seems to me that such a tremendous achievement will capture the imaginations of everyone- at that point it would seem that the so-called “third road” to QG- namely black hole Thermodynamics will surge ahead of strings and LQG/quantum geometry- depending on the particulars the case for strings and/or LQG may be strengthened on some front but would still be absorbed by the momentum of black-hole physics- after all we will HAVE real black-holes to study!

when one considers the direction of science and technology- it seems even more inevitable- in Computing people like Seth Lloyd have shown us that the ultimate end of our advances in computation would lead to black-holes which are by definition ultimate quantum computers- and Lee Smolin has suggested that black-holes may be the very source of universes themselves with his CNS idea-

a positive result at the LHC could only explode all these black-hole ideas- and begin to dominate all research in physics-[which is already pretty black-hole saturated as it is!]
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Old Feb9-05, 05:10 PM                  #2
Kea

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the third road

Originally Posted by setAI
In Computing, people like Seth Lloyd have shown us that the ultimate end of our advances in computation would lead to black-holes which are by definition ultimate quantum computers- and Lee Smolin has suggested that black-holes may be the very source of universes themselves with his CNS idea....
Hi setAI

As a category theorist, I like where you're coming from. A paper that you might want to reference is

The Computational Universe: Quantum gravity from quantum computation
Seth Lloyd
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0501135

By the way, Smolin's ideas should probably be traced back to Bekenstein in this context. And Lloyd's ideas are, I believe, already well appreciated by a certain sector of the spin foam/computation community.

On this note: a request to Integral - isn't it time we had a new master thread entitled (just a suggestion) "Categories, Gravity and Logic" ?

Cheers
Kea



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Old Feb9-05, 05:45 PM                  #3
selfAdjoint

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Originally Posted by Kea
On this note: a request to Integral - isn't it time we had a new master thread entitled (just a suggestion) "Categories, Gravity and Logic" ?
You mean a sticky? Or a new subforum? The first is easy and could hold useful links on the subject. The second is like pulling teeth.
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Old Feb9-05, 07:16 PM                  #4
Kea

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Originally Posted by selfAdjoint
You mean a sticky? Or a new subforum? The first is easy and could hold useful links on the subject. The second is like pulling teeth.
Well, I meant a new subforum. I guess I shouldn't be so lazy, and write a sticky...but I think the subject deserves its own subforum.
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Old Feb11-05, 04:34 PM                  #5
setAI

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I've been meaning to thank you for the link to Seth's paper- Kea- but I've been so engrossed in it I havent had a chance!
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Old Feb14-05, 08:09 PM                  #6
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For setAI and selfAdjoint

That poll of yours is moving slowly, selfAdjoint. Just in case the informational option wins, I thought I would reintroduce it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
CATEGORIES, GRAVITY, LOGIC AND THE COMPUTATIONAL UNIVERSE
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Recent interest in category theory amongst the String theorists, and the growing interest in the intersection between LQG and Strings, suggests that perhaps it is time to recognise the existence of QG ideas outside the scope of Strings, Branes and LQG.

The ideas to which I refer do have an intersection with both Strings and LQG. In the first case, the notion of a gerbe, as discussed in

Higher Gauge Theory: 2-Connections on 2-Bundles John Baez,
Urs Schreiber, http://www.arxiv.org/abs/hep-th/0412325

is a category theoretic one. In the second case, the spin foam (for a review see Spin Foam Models for Quantum Gravity Alejandro Perez, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0301113 ) approach to QG uses the functorial aspect of topological field theories, and has its origins in Penrose's spin networks, which in turn arose from the study of twistors, about which more is said below.

This is a very short introduction to this subject. A few useful web references are collected. It is worth noting here John Baez's homepage http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/README.html

---------------------------------
The Third Road to Quantum Gravity
---------------------------------

The third road is not about the application of a few category theoretic concepts, such as gerbes or functors, to physics modelled entirely on existing principles. It is about trying to understand what we mean by observation and quantum geometry at a fundamental level. The idea of a path integral summation over preselected geometries is dismissed outright.

Only category theory can discuss logic, geometry, algebra and number theory in the same language. The third road says "get the logic right, and you'll see how computational the universe is".

Now this might all be pie-in-the-sky philosophy, but actually it is a well-developed approach to Quantum Gravity. The reason that it remains unrecognised as such is partly due to its interdisciplinary nature. Experts in logic tend to reside in Philosophy departments, experts in computation in Computer Science departments and so on.

For a real philosopher's introduction to these ideas see

Loop and Knots as topoi of substance R.E. Zimmermann
http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/arch...00/0004077.pdf

or maybe look at some of my previous posts at
http://www.physicsforums.com/search.php?searchid=123330

In the next section, I would like to point out that General Relativity itself is category theoretic in nature.

--------------------------------
General Relativity and Categories
--------------------------------

Background independence is about more than coordinate invariance. I shouldn't have to say this, but String theorists don't seem to know this. If you take all the matter out of the universe then there isn't any spacetime. Penrose understood this well. That is why he started using sheaves - to do twistor theory.

The question is: how can we describe a point in spacetime? Well, a point in spacetime isn't of any physical importance. In fact it was only by realising this that Einstein came to accept general covariance in the first place (see the book by J. Stachel, Einstein from B to Z Birkhauser 2002). What is physical are the (equivalence classes of) gravitational fields.

If we work with sheaves over a space LaTeX Code: M then a point is indeed a highly derived concept. So the physics is telling us we should use sheaves to do GR. But sheaves are examples of functors - maps between categories.

Carrying this much further, one can model a differential manifold on something called a local ringed topos, namely the topos of sheaves on some subset of LaTeX Code: \\mathbb{R}^{n} which contains the distinguished sheaf of differentiable LaTeX Code: \\mathbb{R} valued functions on the subset.

But why do we need manifolds at all? Some people take this question very seriously. See, for instance, the recent 400+ page tour-de-force

LaTeX Code: C^{\\infty} -smooth singularities exposed: Chimeras of the differential spacetime manifold; A. Mallios, I. Raptis, http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0411121

on the use of Abstract Differential Geometry in classical and quantum gravity, with its extensive bibliography.

Anyone still reading this will at least grudgingly admit that maybe a physicist needs to know a little bit about what a category is.....

--------------------------------
Quick Introduction to Categories
--------------------------------

Whereas a set has elements, and a map between sets takes elements to elements, a category has both elements, called objects, and relationships between elements, called arrows. Every object LaTeX Code: A is equipped with at least an identity arrow LaTeX Code: 1_{A} from LaTeX Code: A to LaTeX Code: A . Maps between categories, called functors, take objects to objects and arrows to arrows. Arrows may be composed LaTeX Code: f \\circ g if their ends match appropriately. An arrow is monic if for any LaTeX Code: g: A \\rightarrow B and LaTeX Code: h: A \\rightarrow B , LaTeX Code: f \\circ g = f  \\circ h implies LaTeX Code: g = h .

For example, there is a category LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{Set} whose objects are sets and whose arrows are functions between sets. In LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{Set} there is an object LaTeX Code: \\{ 0,1 \\} . There are also many arrows of the form LaTeX Code: f: S \\rightarrow  \\{ 0,1 \\} for a set LaTeX Code: S . Such arrows may be thought of as the selection of a subset of
LaTeX Code: S , namely those elements that are mapped to LaTeX Code: 1 . A one element set, LaTeX Code: \\{ \\ast \\} , has precisely one arrow into it from any other set, making it an example of a terminal object in LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{Set} .

Functors are contravariant if they actually act on the category with all arrows reversed. Contravariant functors from a (small) category LaTeX Code: C into LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{Set} are known as presheaves, providing a preliminary example of a topos. When LaTeX Code: C comes equipped with a topology (definition omitted) one restricts to a subcategory of sheaves.

The intended interpretation of pieces of categories is that they are geometric entities. Objects are zero dimensional and arrows are one dimensional. In a category there is no equality between objects, but we consider objects isomorphic if there exists two arrows LaTeX Code: f and LaTeX Code: g such that LaTeX Code: f \\circ g = 1_{A} and LaTeX Code: g \\circ f = 1_{B} .

Now one may also consider the category LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{Cat} , with categories as objects (which are small enough in a suitable sense) and arrows functors between them. One may naturally include in this category the natural transformations LaTeX Code: \\tau between functors, as another level of arrows, as some commuting squares, which I would like to draw but I need xypic....These squares may be composed, both vertically and horizontally, in the obvious way. Thus LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{Cat} is an example of a 2-category: an inherently two dimensional structure. In a 2-category, all arrows between two objects LaTeX Code: A and LaTeX Code: B , denoted HomLaTeX Code: (A,B) , form a category.

Another example of a 2-category is the category of topological spaces, with homeomorphisms for 1-arrows and homotopy maps as 2-arrows.

Given a subset LaTeX Code: S of the arrows of a category LaTeX Code: C one defines the localisation category LaTeX Code: S^{-1} (C) by sending all arrows in LaTeX Code: S to isomorphisms under a functor LaTeX Code: C \\rightarrow S^{-1}(C) which has a nice universal property.

A category representing the ordinal LaTeX Code: \\mathbf{4} is visualised as a 3-simplex equipped with oriented edges and faces.

Recall that in three dimensions gravity is a topological theory because it has no local degrees of freedom. If one is interested in (physical) spaces that are topological (ie. there is an equivalence up to continuous deformation) and oriented it is sufficient to describe them by a space made out of simplices,
suitably glued together. A TFT is, axiomatically, a functor from such spaces, thought of as arrows between boundary components, into an algebraic category.

However, this isn't category-theoretic enough for the third road.
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Old Feb14-05, 08:11 PM       Last edited by Kea; Feb14-05 at 09:17 PM..            #7
Kea

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...

-------------------------
Topos Theory and Twistors
-------------------------

"Indeed, that the quantum nature of reality should affect the very structure of space-time at some scale is now a more-or-less accepted viewpoint among those physicists who have examined this question in some depth (cf. Schrödinger 1952, Wheeler 1962). But I think that most physicists would believe that such effects should be relevant only at the absurdly small quantum gravity scale of 10-33 cm. (or smaller). My own attitude was somewhat different from this. While it might be that only at 10-33 cm is it necessary to invoke a description of space-time radically removed from that of a manifold, my view was (and still is) that even at the much larger levels of elementary particles, or perhaps atoms, where quantum behaviour holds sway, the standard space-time descriptions have ceased to be the most physically appropriate ones, and some other picture of reality, though at that level equivalent to the space-time one, should prove to be the more fruitful."

quoted from

Roger Penrose On the Origins of Twistor Theory
http://users.ox.ac.uk/~tweb/00001/index.shtml#05

The massless free field equations for particles of spin LaTeX Code: \\frac{n}{2} in terms of LaTeX Code: n indices are

LaTeX Code: \\nabla^{AAsingle-quote} \\phi_{AB....} = 0 \\hspace{20mm} \\nabla^{AAsingle-quote}<BR>\\widetilde{\\phi}_{Asingle-quoteBsingle-quote....} = 0

where in spinor terms, for the photon, the Maxwell curvature is

LaTeX Code: F_{AAsingle-quoteBBsingle-quote} = \\phi_{AB} \\varepsilon_{Asingle-quoteBsingle-quote} + \\varepsilon_{AB}<BR>\\widetilde{\\phi}_{Asingle-quoteBsingle-quote}

for LaTeX Code: \\varepsilon_{AB} the skew symmetric spinor. It was noted
that these equations are actually invariant under a conformal group. One needs to compactify Minkowski space so this works properly. The double cover of the Lorentz group is then replaced by the twistor group LaTeX Code: SU(2,2) . It acts on twistor space LaTeX Code: \\mathbb{T} , with coordinates given by a spinor pair. For details see the two volume

Spinors and Spacetime Penrose and Rindler (Cambridge 1986)

The twistor correspondence looks at flag manifolds such as

LaTeX Code: \\mathbb{F}_{12} \\equiv \\{ V_{1} \\subset V_{2} \\subset<BR>\\mathbb{T} \\}

where LaTeX Code: V_{1} \\simeq \\mathbb{C} and LaTeX Code: V_{2} \\simeq \\mathbb{C}^{2} . Points of Minkowski space correspond to spheres in a projective twistor space under the correspondence

LaTeX Code: \\mathbb{P}\\mathbb{T} \\leftarrow \\mathbb{F}_{12} \\rightarrow<BR>\\mathbb{M}^{C}

and the beauty of this is that solutions to the (primed) spin LaTeX Code: s
equations correspond (one to one) to elements of a sheaf cohomology

LaTeX Code: H^{1}(\\mathbb{P}\\mathbb{T}^{+},S(-2s-2))

and similarly for the unprimed case. Don't worry too much about this if you don't know anything about it. The point is that this cohomology is Abelian. Now one can do non-Abelian cohomology in 1D, but trying to do it in 2D is another matter altogether. Why would we want this?

The first interesting step towards a modern category theoretic understanding of mass, IMHO, is the study of the Klein-Gordon equation in

L.P. Hughston T.R. Hurd A cohomological description of massive
fields
Proc. Roy. Soc. Lond. A378 (1981) 141-154

In this paper, Hughston and Hurd combine two solutions to the massless equations for spin LaTeX Code: s particles thought of as elements of the sheaf cohomology group LaTeX Code: H^{1}(\\mathbb{P}\\mathbb{T}^{+} , S(-2 s - 2)) on twistor space. The Klein-Gordon equation solutions then belong to a second cohomology group LaTeX Code: H^{2}(\\mathbb{P}\\mathbb{T}^{+} \\times \\mathbb{P}\\mathbb{T}^{+} , S_{m,s}(- \\mu - 2 , - \\eta - 2)) for LaTeX Code: s - \\frac{1}{2} | \\mu - \\eta | \\in \\{ 0,1,2,3 \\cdots \\} .

Assuming we believe the need to understand this in category theoretic terms, it is simply a fact that categories of sheaves are toposes, which are categories with certain nice properties.

Some notable web references on toposes and spacetime are

Toposes, Triples and Theories Michael Barr and Charles
Wells, http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/pub/ttt.html

A New Approach to Quantising Spacetime C.J. Isham,

I: Quantising on a General Category http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0303060
II: http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0304077 III: http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0306064

The internal description of a causal set: what the universe
looks like from the inside
F. Markopoulou
http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9811053

-------------------------------
Knots and Quantum Computation
-------------------------------

Everyone seems to agree these days that knots are wonderful. To category theorists, knots have a lot to do with

A. Joyal R. Street, Braided tensor categories, Adv. Math.
102(1993)20-78

or other higher dimensional categorical structures of a similar kind. In

A modular functor which is universal for quantum
computation
M. Freedman M. Larsen Z. Wang
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0001108

the authors show why the Jones polynomial for a certain root of unity is pretty good at modelling quantum computation. An even more thorough use of categories for computation appears in the seminal paper

S. Abramsky B. Coecke A categorical semantics of quantum
protocols
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0402130

--------------------------------------
Cohomology: Descent Theory references
--------------------------------------

Categorical and combinatorial aspects of descent theory
Ross Street http://arxiv.org/abs/math/0303175

Notes on Grothendieck topologies, fibered categories and
descent theory
Angelo Vistoli
http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/math.AG/0412512

Notes on Motivic Cohomology C. Mazza V. Voevodsky C.
Weibel http://www.math.uiuc.edu/K-theory/0486

Best regards
Kea
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Old Feb15-05, 01:57 AM                  #8
Chronos

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I'm a big fan of information theory cosmology. It does a pretty amazing job of modeling certain things - like entropy.
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Old Feb15-05, 05:49 PM                  #9
Kea

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Chronos

Do you have any favourite references on the cosmology?

Cheers
Kea
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Old Feb15-05, 10:48 PM                  #10
Chronos

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Originally Posted by Kea
Do you have any favourite references on the cosmology?

Cheers
Kea
As it happens, I do. This very obscure paper sparked my initial interest:

The Nature of Information and the Information of Nature
http://informationphysics.com/InformationPhysics.html

I later became intrigued by some work done by Davies on emergent phenomena - in particular life:

How bio-friendly is the universe
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0403050

Emergent biological principles and the computational properties of the universe
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408014

Application of information theory to physics has evolved considerably since the Shannon entropy days. Quantum information theory has become quite popular in recent years.
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Old Feb16-05, 07:41 PM                  #11
Kea

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Thanks, Chronos

Originally Posted by Chronos
Emergent biological principles and the computational properties of the universe
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0408014
I had a look through this. It's something that I'm sure I would have scoffed at 10 years ago, but of course now I've changed my mind! He states: Emergent laws of biology may be consistent with, but not reducible to, the normal laws of physics operating at the microscopic level. I disagree with this. I believe the post-quantum laws of physics are sufficiently radical to encompass emergent phenomena. The link between knots and DNA is already a trendy topic. Davies seems to think a bit too much like a classical cosmologist. But great stuff.

While I think of it, I recently discovered a truly 21st century series of papers which I suspect very few people understand...and I'm not one of them!....but I'm going to recommend anyway, by Paul Taylor, whose homepage is
http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~pt/
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Old Mar14-05, 04:40 PM                  #12
setAI

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an interesting paper on q/comp-ing the bosonic oscillator

http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0502166

"By the early eighties, Fredkin, Feynman, Minsky and others were exploring the notion that the laws of physics could be simulated with computers. Feynman's particular contribution was to bring quantum mechanics into the discussion and his ideas played a key role in the development of quantum computation. It was shown in 1995 by Barenco et al that all quantum computation processes could be written in terms of local operations and CNOT gates. We show how one of the most important of all physical systems, the quantized bosonic oscillator, can be rewritten in precisely those terms and therefore described as a quantum computational process, exactly in line with Feynman's ideas. We discuss single particle excitations and coherent states. "
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Old Mar30-05, 05:14 PM                  #13
setAI

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"It is likely that the holographic principle will be a consequence of the would be theory of quantum gravity. Thus, it is interesting to try to go in the opposite direction: can the holographic principle fix the gravitational interaction? It is shown that the classical gravitational interaction is well inside the set of potentials allowed by the holographic principle. Computations clarify which role such a principle could have in lowering the value of the cosmological constant computed in QFT to the observed one."

Fri, 18 Mar 2005 08:24:20 GMT
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0503073
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Old Mar31-05, 09:28 PM                  #14
Kea

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cosmology

Let's for the moment consider the possibility that there is no cosmological constant in our observed classical cosmos, as per recent discussions. What would the various approaches to QG have to say to this?

As Lubos has already pointed out, the String theorists might be very happy because they could then simply return to the unification paradigm without worrying about a positive LaTeX Code: \\Lambda . However, doing away with
LaTeX Code: \\Lambda might mean doing away with varying fundamental constants, such as LaTeX Code: \\alpha , and as far as I am aware current gravitational String theory requires this variability (please correct me if I'm wrong, Lubos).

I don't really need to point out that an absence of LaTeX Code: \\Lambda is a serious problem for the naive application of 3D state sums to cosmology. Even my flatmate can see that.

So as far as I know this leaves 'fundamental LQG' and it's relatives.

It would be nice if people commented on this issue. Personally I cannot say anything at present.

Regards
Kea
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Old Apr15-05, 01:21 PM                  #15
setAI

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General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology- Computability at the Planck scale

"We consider the issue of computability at the most fundamental level of physical reality: the Planck scale. To this aim, we consider the theoretical model of a quantum computer on a non commutative space background, which is a computational model for quantum gravity. In this domain, all computable functions are the laws of physics in their most primordial form, and non computable mathematics finds no room in the physical world. Moreover, we show that a theorem that classically was considered true but non computable, at the Planck scale becomes computable but non decidable. This fact is due to the change of logic for observers in a quantum-computing universe: from standard quantum logic and classical logic, to paraconsistent logic. "

http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0412076
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Old Apr15-05, 08:49 PM       Last edited by Kea; Apr15-05 at 09:12 PM..            #16
Kea

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Originally Posted by setAI
http://www.arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0412076
Thanks, setAI. This is a nice, readable paper. The list of references in it is an excellent resource, too.

From page 4:
"If instead the observer focuses on his perceptions, he will make, in his mind, automatically the two limits LaTeX Code: N \\rightarrow \\infty and LaTeX Code: A \\rightarrow 0 "

where LaTeX Code: A is the area of a cell of the cosmological horizon and the limit on LaTeX Code: N means that, classically, we should expect no cosmological constant, even though the number LaTeX Code: 10^{120} is significant for physics at the Planck scale.
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