When I turn, the car hops up and down.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of a three-wheeled autonomous vehicle, specifically addressing the issue of the car "hopping" when turning. Participants explore various mechanical configurations, the role of the front wheel, and balance considerations in vehicle design.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the necessity of turning the back wheels in opposite directions and suggests exploring alternative turning methods.
  • Another participant notes that if the vehicle has a solid axle, both wheels would turn at the same speed, potentially causing the inner wheel to hop during turns.
  • A participant proposes that the front wheel's design may contribute to the hopping issue, suggesting that turning while moving forward could alleviate the problem.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of the front wheel, with some participants questioning its role in balance and stability.
  • One participant asserts that no vehicle can balance on two wheels, while another counters that it is possible if the center of gravity is positioned correctly.
  • Participants discuss the challenges of controlling a humanoid robot compared to a three-wheeled vehicle, with some suggesting that humanoid control is significantly more complex.
  • Several participants propose alternative designs, such as using casters or adjusting weight distribution to improve stability and turning capabilities.
  • One participant suggests that the hopping may be due to excessive mass over a fixed wheel, indicating a need for better load distribution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and function of the front wheel, the feasibility of balancing on two wheels, and the complexity of controlling different types of vehicles. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives present.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various mechanical configurations and design considerations without reaching a consensus on the best approach to address the hopping issue or the role of the front wheel.

PrudensOptimus
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Hello,


I have a 3 wheel autonomous small car... built out of legos.

And umm... the problem is when I turn the back two wheels in opposite directions... to produce left or right turns... the autonomous vehicle tends to "up and down"... ... what causes that?
 
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Why are you turning the back wheels in opposite directions?
 
is it a solid axel? if it is both wheels are turning at the same speed, this makes the inner wheel hop. Because the inner is trying to turn as fast as the outer wheel.
you need a limited slip axel.
 
One question: your front wheel, is it on an axle, or can it freely rotate like a caster (like on a shopping cart)?

If your front wheel has an axle, then here's the problem:

By turning the rear wheels in opposite directions, you are rotating the vehicle about a vertical axis that is centred on the rear axle - the front wheel gets dragged sideways, causing the hopping.

Instead of trying to turn "on a dime", try turning while moving forward slightly. Rotate only one wheel - keep the other one wheel fixed or even moving forward slightly while turning the other forward. This will allow the front wheel to move forward as it pivots.
 
Yes, his front wheel is on an axle.
 
Yea on an axle...

Also... do i even need the front wheel?

What is the front wheel there for anyways? lol... I'm kinda confused myself lol.

Any benefits if i keep it there?
 
PrudensOptimus said:
Also... do i even need the front wheel?

Have I missed something with your posts about 3 wheeled vehicles? Surely the purpose of having more than two wheels is so that your vehicle doesn't fall over?
 
What if my vehicle is balanced without the front wheel? Will there be any downside to remove the front wheel?
 
No vehicle is balanced on two wheels. Even a bike, your body is constantly adjusting to maintain balance.

You need the third wheel for balance and stability.
 
  • #10
What if the "third" wheel causes turning difficulties? What can i do about that.
 
  • #11
PrudensOptimus said:
What if the "third" wheel causes turning difficulties? What can i do about that.

You could use a smooth plastic "nub". A little nylon sphere on a stick would work well(I've seen a lot of sumo-bots with these). Or you could go crazy and install a handfull of 3-axis motion sensors and a complicated algorythm to continually balance your bot(like the Segway).
 
  • #12
Or you could have a caster (or did we discount that in another thread?)
 
  • #13
physicsCU said:
No vehicle is balanced on two wheels.

This is not true.

A vehicle whose centre of gravity is below the axle balances just fine thank you.

(Of course, in practice, you'll want to accelerate slowly, lest the wheels remain motionless and the vehicle does the rotating...)
 
  • #14
Yes, that is true, but I think in practice, it is very difficult to get the CG below the axle, unless you know what you are doing.

It is a hard mix of balance and math and design to get it though. Most people who do it end up there not on purpose
 
  • #15
physicsCU said:
Yes, that is true, but I think in practice, it is very difficult to get the CG below the axle, unless you know what you are doing.

It is a hard mix of balance and math and design to get it though. Most people who do it end up there not on purpose

I wouldn't say getting the centre of gravity below the axle would be an accident, nor would I say it's difficult. The difficulty is controlling such a two-wheeled vehicle.
 
  • #16
Is controlling the movements of a humanoid difficult? LIke Asimo, is it hard to control something like that?
 
  • #17
I think you should stick to your three wheeled car.

The movements of a humanoid, I would think, would be very difficult to reproduce.
 
  • #18
PrudensOptimus said:
Is controlling the movements of a humanoid difficult? LIke Asimo, is it hard to control something like that?

Consider this: Honda has over a decade and many many millions of dollars in development costs in that robot, its about the only one like it (or even close) that has been publically announced, each version improves over the previous but battery life is still measured in minutes. Pretty easy to conclude, its incredibly difficult.

Mimicing the Segway's ability to balance on two wheels is far easier and can be done with off-the-shelf parts for around $1000-1500 with only minimal code development. Some guy built one and put up a website on how he did it and you could probably google him.

Your weight distribution will make a huge difference here too. Go to a home center and push around a lumber cart, the six wheel kind. It has two fixed wheels in the center that carry almost all the load. The four casters are at the corners but mounted slightly higher then the center wheels. Viewed from the side, the cart needs to "tip" to one set of the casters or the other because of the mounting height difference. But using a balanced load it is very easy to track straight and make corners with the cart because the load is over the two fixed center wheels, the casters are more just a stop to keep the cart from tipping too far.

You could mimic that - put all your weight so its balanced over the two center wheels, now the front wheel is more like an outrigger that prevents the vehicle from tipping, probably need to add a back wheel too to keep it from tipping that direction as well. But now when the two drive motors want to turn they carry all the load and get pretty much all the traction so the outrigger is just along for the ride.

If you look at the combat robots for "Battlebots" or "Robot Warriors" and so on you'll see some two wheel designs setup like this expect they just slide the front/back edge of the machine on the ground. Since that edge is for stability but carries no significant load it doesn't even need a wheel.

If your robot is the one trying to lift something in a claw, this is going to be more difficult as now you have the weight of the load to factor in. A caster wheel sounds like an even better idea.

Look at this lawn mower - its rear wheels do all the steering, the front wheels are casters that just follow whatever the rear wants to do...
http://www.dixiechopper.com/flatlanders_.php
 
  • #19
Tank tracks? Have you thought about those? Also, do you have the grabber arm built into to front of your vehicle or did you build it so it attaches between the rear wheels or behind the rear wheels? Attaching behind the rear wheels a little will make load distribution a little easier.

http://www.thetoolsbar.com/prod_images_large/ACFaC4ERB.jpg

Or, why don't you try two front(common axil single drive motor) and one steerable rear wheel?

Or, two independent front wheels with a caster rear wheel or sliding nub?

Do you know what the mass of the object you need to lift is? If you do then you can conceivably balance the load perfectly over the rear wheels. You car is probably hopping because you have too much mass over a fixed wheel.

http://www.robothut.robotnut.com/rj5p5.jpg

http://www.robotgames.net/RobotGames/wcrg_archives/2001/gallery/hi-rez/2001-Simmons_Sumo1.jpg
 
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