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Old Apr27-05, 09:12 PM                  #1
Zanket

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Black hole riddle

General relativity tells us that an infinite number of houses can be built at fixed altitudes in the one meter (say) above the horizon, as measured in Euclidian geometry. Let this infinite number of houses exist. Let the street numbers of the houses increment with decreasing altitude. For someone crossing the horizon at the end of this street of houses, what is the street number of the last house passed?
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Old Apr27-05, 09:57 PM                  #2
PeteSF

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Insufficient data to provide a definite answer: "the last house passed" is not well defined.

How does this relate to black holes?
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Old Apr27-05, 10:16 PM                  #3
JesseM

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Originally Posted by Zanket
General relativity tells us that an infinite number of houses can be built at fixed altitudes in the one meter (say) above the horizon, as measured in Euclidian geometry.
What do you mean by "as measured in Euclidean geometry"? In a continuous classical world it would also be possible to build an infinite number of ever-thinner, ever-more-closely-packed houses in any given meter of flat space--what role does the event horizon play in this problem?
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Old Apr27-05, 10:34 PM                  #4
PeteSF

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Oops... I skipped through too fast. For some reason, I missed the GR reference and was considering an abitrary Euclidian space...

Anyway, the core idea of my last post remains, I think... it is not possible to uniquely identify "the last house" in such a situation.
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Old Apr28-05, 12:09 AM                  #5
Zanket

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Originally Posted by JesseM
What do you mean by "as measured in Euclidean geometry"?
This means, “measured as if spacetime were flat,” and not curved by gravity. It’s easier to talk about circumferential measurements, which are not affected by gravity. Radially, between the circumference of the horizon and a circumference infinitesimally longer, or let’s say one meter longer, an infinite number of houses can fit, so says general relativity. The directly measured radial distance between these circumferences is infinite.

In a continuous classical world it would also be possible to build an infinite number of ever-thinner, ever-more-closely-packed houses in any given meter of flat space--what role does the event horizon play in this problem?
You can assume that these houses are all the same proper size; e.g. they can all fit people within. Just above the horizon is where the last house is. At and below the horizon, no house can remain at a fixed altitude.
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Old Apr28-05, 12:23 AM                  #6
Zanket

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Originally Posted by PeteSF
Anyway, the core idea of my last post remains, I think... it is not possible to uniquely identify "the last house" in such a situation.
On the way to the horizon, houses are passed. Upon reaching the horizon, there are no more houses. Then there must have been a last house, uniquely identifiable.
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Old Apr28-05, 12:23 AM                  #7
JesseM

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In order for all the houses to maintain a constant distance from the horizon, it will have to expend large amounts of energy--would the energy density of the ever-more-tightly packed houses (in some coordinate system at least, I don't know which system would be the relevant one) cause the houses to form a black hole themselves, or the horizon of the original black hole to expand to include them? If so, maybe this thought-experiment wouldn't be possible even in principle...
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Old Apr28-05, 12:26 AM                  #8
JesseM

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Originally Posted by Zanket
On the way to the horizon, houses are passed. Upon reaching the horizon, there are no more houses. Then there must have been a last house, uniquely identifiable.
Do you think there is a uniquely identifiable smallest positive fraction of the form 1/n, where n is a positive integer? After all, as you approach zero when moving along the real number line in the negative direction, fractions of this form are passed, but upon reaching zero there are no more such fractions.
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Old Apr28-05, 01:16 AM       Last edited by Zanket; Apr28-05 at 01:24 AM..            #9
Zanket

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Originally Posted by JesseM
In order for all the houses to maintain a constant distance from the horizon, it will have to expend large amounts of energy--would the energy density of the ever-more-tightly packed houses (in some coordinate system at least, I don't know which system would be the relevant one) cause the houses to form a black hole themselves, or the horizon of the original black hole to expand to include them?
Such details can be ignored in a thought experiment like this. These are not ever-more-tightly packed houses, at least not in their own frames. They can all have the same proper sized lots.

Do you think there is a uniquely identifiable smallest positive fraction of the form 1/n, where n is a positive integer? After all, as you approach zero when moving along the real number line in the negative direction, fractions of this form are passed, but upon reaching zero there are no more such fractions.
True, but it doesn’t answer the riddle. It doesn’t explain, for example, how there is not a uniquely identifiable last house. Have you ever passed a row of houses, and upon coming to the end of the row, found that there was no last house in the row?
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Old Apr28-05, 01:36 AM                  #10
JesseM

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Originally Posted by Zanket
Such details can be ignored in a thought experiment like this. These are not ever-more-tightly packed houses, at least not in their own frames. They can all have the same proper sized lots.
But in terms of the formation of a new black hole, does GR say that the fact that the distance to their nearest neighbors in their own frames is the same for each house is enough to insure that no black hole will form? Isn't the fact that houses closer and closer to the horizon will have to thrust with greater and greater energy in their own frames, with the thrust energy approaching infinity as you approach the horizon, also relevant to answering the question of whether any of the houses form a black hole (or cause the horizon of the existing black hole to expand to swallow them)?
Originally Posted by Zanket
True, but it doesn’t answer the riddle. It doesn’t explain, for example, how there is not a uniquely identifiable last house. Have you ever passed a row of houses, and upon coming to the end of the row, found that there was no last house in the row?
Well, even if this thought-experiment is possible in principle, won't a freely-falling observer see the houses more and more tightly packed as he approaches the horizon, rather than an equal distance apart? If so, he is experiencing the same thing you would experience if you walked along a number line towards zero with each number of the form 1/n marked off--at some point the markings would become too close to distinguish.
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Old Apr28-05, 01:55 AM                  #11
PeteSF

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Originally Posted by Zanket
On the way to the horizon, houses are passed. Upon reaching the horizon, there are no more houses. Then there must have been a last house, uniquely identifiable.
That's certainly intuitive, but is it true? Unituitive things happen when you're dealing with infinities, which is why Zeno is remembered so fondly.
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Old Apr28-05, 02:05 AM                  #12
Zanket

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Originally Posted by JesseM
But in terms of the formation of a new black hole, does GR say...
Such details put the cart before the horse, so they can be ignored.

Well, even if this thought-experiment is possible in principle, won't a freely-falling observer see the houses more and more tightly packed as he approaches the horizon, rather than an equal distance apart? If so, he is experiencing the same thing you would experience if you walked along a number line towards zero with each number of the form 1/n marked off--at some point the markings would become too close to distinguish.
That is indeed the way one of my books explains how an observer free-falling across a horizon can travel an infinite distance (an infinite number of houses) in a finite time. But it still does not answer the riddle. I pass an infinite amount of infinitesimally-sized stuff with every step I take. But that doesn’t explain how, when I come to the end of a row of houses, there is no last house.
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Old Apr28-05, 02:12 AM                  #13
PeteSF

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That is indeed the way one of my books explains how an observer free-falling across a horizon can travel an infinite distance (an infinite number of houses) in a finite time. But it still does not answer the riddle. I pass an infinite amount of infinitesimally-sized stuff with every step I take. But that doesn’t explain how, when I come to the end of a row of houses, there is no last house.
Sure it does. If there are infinity houses, there is no uniquely identifiable last house, just like there is no uniquely identifiable last number. What's left to explain?
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Old Apr28-05, 02:15 AM                  #14
Zanket

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Originally Posted by PeteSF
That's certainly intuitive, but is it true? Unituitive things happen when you're dealing with infinities, which is why Zeno is remembered so fondly.
Infinities can be used to mask absurdity. The solution to Zeno’s Paradox is logical.
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Old Apr28-05, 02:30 AM                  #15
Zanket

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Originally Posted by PeteSF
Sure it does. If there are infinity houses, there is no uniquely identifiable last house, just like there is no uniquely identifiable last number. What's left to explain?
What is left to explain is how the last house can be passed without it being uniquely identifiable. Houses are passed, and then there are no more houses. There must have been a last house. (But now we’re going in circles.)
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Old Apr28-05, 02:31 AM                  #16
JesseM

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Originally Posted by Zanket
Such details put the cart before the horse, so they can be ignored.
What do you mean "put the cart before the horse"? Do you agree that houses closer and closer to the horizon will have to be thrusting with greater and greater G-forces to maintain a constant height? And wouldn't it be true that if a given mass thrusted with greater and greater G-force in flat spacetime, eventually the energy density would be high enough to form a black hole? If that's correct, then it seems the situation you describe is physically impossible, even in principle.
Originally Posted by Zanket
That is indeed the way one of my books explains how an observer free-falling across a horizon can travel an infinite distance (an infinite number of houses) in a finite time. But it still does not answer the riddle. I pass an infinite amount of infinitesimally-sized stuff with every step I take. But that doesn’t explain how, when I come to the end of a row of houses, there is no last house.
OK, but the black hole doesn't seem to be relevant to this particular "paradox". Do you agree that the exact same problem occurs in my thought experiment where you are walking towards 0 along a number line where every number of the form 1/n has been marked? I would suggest looking into some real analysis, particularly the concept of open sets vs. closed sets.
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