Dark Matter need not be for a stable Universe Sez'an'amateur

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of dark matter and its necessity in explaining galaxy rotation and stability, particularly in the Milky Way. Participants explore alternative theories, including the idea of space expanding rather than matter, and the implications of such theories on cosmology and the understanding of the universe's structure.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses skepticism about dark matter, referring to it as "Voodoo Magic" and proposes that the expansion of space rather than matter could explain galaxy dynamics.
  • Another participant questions how the proposed theory accounts for redshift, suggesting that redshift is due to the Doppler effect rather than dark matter.
  • A participant argues that the Doppler effect can be explained by the expansion of space, where galaxies appear to move away due to the increasing distance caused by this expansion.
  • One participant challenges the initial theory, stating that dark matter is well-supported by experimental evidence and that the proposed ideas do not fit observed data.
  • Another participant asks how the theory can explain the consistent rotation speeds of stars and gas in galaxies without dark matter, expressing doubt about the dark matter halo theory.
  • There is a suggestion that a "small universal constant" could be related to the effects of space expanding, potentially addressing some of the concerns raised.
  • Participants request formal mathematical support for the claims made, emphasizing the need for rigorous scientific backing.
  • One participant highlights the need for the proposed theory to account for various established cosmological observations, including the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation (CMBR) and the Hubble relationship.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a lack of consensus, with some supporting the idea of eliminating dark matter through alternative theories, while others firmly defend the existence and necessity of dark matter based on experimental evidence. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing views presented.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of formal mathematical derivations for the proposed theories and the dependence on various assumptions about cosmic expansion and its effects on galaxy dynamics. The discussion also highlights the complexity of reconciling new theories with established cosmological observations.

timestill
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There are several scientists (including Stephen Hawking) who made calculations about our Galaxy rotation and mass... The only stable Milky Way construct they were able to come up with had to include in it's calculation the so called "Dark Matter" ... As I am a realist I just can take seriously anything that strikes me as "Voodoo Magic" like "Dark Matter"... So I want to surmise to your judgment this speculation (that's all it is) ... It is said that without the "DM" the fringes of our MW would have been blown in the intergalactic space long ago... I say that I can ELIMINATE DM from their calculations if we would have instead of the Matter of the Universe expanding just The Space expanding ... How about instead of a quick Big Bang... A Slow (still continuing) Soft Bang of Space. And perhaps that would eliminate the singularity at the beginning as virtual particles would become real particles... I believe that we are now still Banging and the intervening space created thus could b used as a balancing power in many ways including against the ultimate collapse. Design for the "strong anthropic principle"? ...
I am an amateur... nothing serious here... just a thought... :blushing:
However it does strike me that we humans always detested (or afraid... or avoiding) darkness (we evolved and survived because of light) so there is no wonder that we would discount any conscious thinking about the Dark Expanding when we are enmeshed with the power of light and real-matter. Nevertheless we could give it a try in this forum…. I would love to hear your opinions pro or against such delusion… Bring it on !
 
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Timestill

I say that I can ELIMINATE DM from their calculations if we would have instead of the Matter of the Universe expanding just The Space expanding ... How about instead of a quick Big Bang... A

So how do you account for red shift?
 
Red shift is due to the doppler effect... not Dark Matter...
 
The Doppler effect is based on 'distance and speed' (simple terms) The space expanding would account for both distance and speed ... A race car on the track ... the track is expanding and the car sits still ... u still observe a Doppler effect as the distance increases... from your own point of reference... It is known that the further the galaxies are from us the faster they move>>> the more red-shifted they are (so it could be that the space expansion increases with time)...
 
Your theory is, alas, a delusion. The phenomena we know as "dark matter" is well constrained by experimental evidence. Hundreds of galaxies follow particular patterns. While there is more than theory that can explain those patterns, and not all involve dark matter itself, your theory doesn't come even close to fitting the data.
 
timestill said:
There are several scientists (including Stephen Hawking) who made calculations about our Galaxy rotation and mass... The only stable Milky Way construct they were able to come up with had to include in it's calculation the so called "Dark Matter" ... As I am a realist I just can take seriously anything that strikes me as "Voodoo Magic" like "Dark Matter"... So I want to surmise to your judgment this speculation (that's all it is) ... It is said that without the "DM" the fringes of our MW would have been blown in the intergalactic space long ago... I say that I can ELIMINATE DM from their calculations if we would have instead of the Matter of the Universe expanding just The Space expanding ... How about instead of a quick Big Bang... A Slow (still continuing) Soft Bang of Space. And perhaps that would eliminate the singularity at the beginning as virtual particles would become real particles... I believe that we are now still Banging and the intervening space created thus could b used as a balancing power in many ways including against the ultimate collapse. Design for the "strong anthropic principle"? ...
I am an amateur... nothing serious here... just a thought... :blushing:
However it does strike me that we humans always detested (or afraid... or avoiding) darkness (we evolved and survived because of light) so there is no wonder that we would discount any conscious thinking about the Dark Expanding when we are enmeshed with the power of light and real-matter. Nevertheless we could give it a try in this forum…. I would love to hear your opinions pro or against such delusion… Bring it on !
How would space expanding explain why the stars and gas on the rim of a galaxy rotate at the same speed as matter near the hub without being expelled?
BTW I'm not personally too convinved by the DM halo theory surmised to account for this but how does your idea nullify it?
 
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ohwilleke said:
The phenomena we know as "dark matter" is well constrained by experimental evidence.

What is the "Experimental Evidence" you were referring to ? I don't believe that anyone has yet found any evidence and in the least "experiment" with dark matter ... o:)
If someone would have had experimental evidence then it would not deserve the name of 'dark matter'...
 
Art said:
How would space expanding explain why the stars and gas on the rim of a galaxy rotate at the same speed as matter near the hub without being expelled?
BTW I'm not personally too convinved by the DM halo theory surmised to account for this but how does your idea nullify it?

You can consider the "small universal constant" (notion that has been revived through mathematical calculation by Hawking) as being the effect of space expanding...
 
Art said:
How would space expanding explain why the stars and gas on the rim of a galaxy rotate at the same speed as matter near the hub without being expelled?
BTW I'm not personally too convinved by the DM halo theory surmised to account for this but how does your idea nullify it?


As to your second point I could suggest that space expanding from all sides (4d space time) it would nullify it. Outside galaxy space expanding would cancel out the potential of clusters on the MW fringe from getting out of the spiral fringes. As a star creates a 'dimple' of curvature in space time continuum ... so would space expanding would create a 'bubble' in the same time-space pushing back ...
 
  • #10
Let's see the formal mathematics then. I don't make scientific physics judgements on prose.
 
  • #11
OK timestill, you seem to be saying that you have an idea that does away with not only dark matter in spiral galaxies, but also re-writes the concordance model within the Big Bang Theory.

Let's take your DM idea first. Instead of just waving your hands around, how about you show that your idea nicely reproduces the observed rotation curves for the spirals for which we have good data? Oh, and while you're at it, please show that your idea doesn't require 're-explaining' lots of stuff already well-accounted for, such as the motion of the Sun around the MW centre.

Next, you probably know that most of the DM in the universe is in rich clusters of galaxies, not the halos of spirals. How does your idea address this? Specifically, how does it account for the motions of galaxies in these clusters, X-rays data on temperature, pressure and composition of the IGM, and the Sunyaez-Zel'dovich effect?

Finally, since you're re-writing cosmology, please let us know how you account for:
- the CMBR, including the acoustic spectrum
- the Hubble relationship
- the abundance of light nuclides
- large scale structure.

If you have difficulty with just what any of these mean, please take the time and trouble to read some of the excellent threads in PF's General Astronomy and Cosmology section.
 

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