Asperger's Syndrome: Myth or Reality?

[zoobyshoe]

What Is Asperger Syndrome?
By Barbara L. Kirby


"Asperger Syndrome or (Asperger's Disorder) is a neurobiological disorder named for a Viennese physician, Hans Asperger, who in 1944 published a paper which described a pattern of behaviors in several young boys who had normal intelligence and language development, but who also exhibited autistic-like behaviors and marked deficiencies in social and communication skills..."

"...Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see..."

"Because of their high degree of functionality and their naiveté, those with AS are often viewed as eccentric or odd and can easily become victims of teasing and bullying. While language development seems, on the surface, normal, individuals with AS often have deficits in pragmatics and prosody. Vocabularies may be extraordinarily rich and some children sound like "little professors." However, persons with AS can be extremely literal and have difficulty using language in a social context..."


-by Lois Freisleben-Cook:
"...A few people with Asperger's syndrome are very successful and until recently were not diagnosed with anything but were seen as brilliant, eccentric, absent minded, socially inept, and a little awkward physically."

"Although the criteria state no significant delay in the development of language milestones, what you might see is a "different" way of using language. A child may have a wonderful vocabulary and even demonstrate hyperlexia but not truly understand the nuances of language and have difficulty with language pragmatics. Social pragmatics also tend be weak, leading the person to appear to be walking to the beat of a "different drum". Motor dyspraxia can be reflected in a tendency to be clumsy."

"In social interaction, many people with Asperger's syndrome demonstrate gaze avoidance and may actually turn away at the same moment as greeting another..."

Asperger Syndrome
Address:http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

 

[mathwonk]

this will not garner any comments apparently because we all think we have it and would rather not discuss it. i floated this topic in my mathd epartm,ent as a joke and did not get a single comment of any kind. i guess there are some things, like being socially clueless, that math/science types are sensitive about.

 

[pattylou]

Well, it may not garner any comments but I guarantee you will enjoy reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" if you haven't yet.

Besides, social skills are over-rated. And I seriously doubt that nerdism (of which I am a proud card carrying member; I can quote HHGttG with the best of 'em) is really physiologically the same as Asperger's.

 

[brewnog]

Well, it may not garner any comments but I guarantee you will enjoy reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" if you haven't yet.

Yes, definintely! If not medically accurate (anyone?), it's a fantastic way of telling a story, and such a fascinating condition too.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Besides, social skills are over-rated.

No kidding, I find the most people too boring to make it worth the effort. This of course is one reason why I landed here at PF.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well, it may not garner any comments but I guarantee you will enjoy reading "The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night" if you haven't yet.

What is this? I haven't heard of it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Zooby, I was curious why you posted this in GD instead of Biology or Social Sciences?

 

[zoobyshoe]

No kidding, I find the most people too boring to make it worth the effort. This of course is one reason why I landed here at PF.

Indeed, the first principle of social skills seems to be the unwritten rule: Never, under any circumstances, say anything interesting!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Indeed, the first principle of social skills seems to be the unwritten rule: Never, under any circumstances, say anything interesting!

You can imagine how well my interests go over in a crowd - physics, engineering, and serious discussion of fringe topics. Just shoot me now.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, I was curious why you posted this in GD instead of Biology or Social Sciences?

Yes, I debated about that, and am aware it would probably be more appropriate in Social Sciences. In the end I posted it here just because I feel more people check out GD than the smaller, dedicated forums. It's fine if you want to move it, though.

 

[fourier jr]

Besides, social skills are over-rated. And I seriously doubt that nerdism (of which I am a proud card carrying member; I can quote HHGttG with the best of 'em) is really physiologically the same as Asperger's.

disagree here. last school year i did the courses on verbal & nonverbal communication & have been teaching myself about relationships also since then. I've learned a ton of stuff that i didn't know before. it has helped me at work also.

also one doesn't have to have all the symptoms of asperger's to have it, so nerdism in one form or another could be asperger's.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Yes, I debated about that, and am aware it would probably be more appropriate in Social Sciences. In the end I posted it here just because I feel more people check out GD than the smaller, dedicated forums. It's fine if you want to move it, though.

You were wanting to get personal feedback and not so much technical responses? I was just curious.

 

[zoobyshoe]

disagree here. last school year i did the courses on verbal & nonverbal communication & have been teaching myself about relationships also since then. I've learned a ton of stuff that i didn't know before. it has helped me at work also.

also one doesn't have to have all the symptoms of asperger's to have it, so nerdism in one form or another could be asperger's.

Asperger's warrants an FYI in any case because the book I read that prompted this thread pointed out that, since it's only a very recent addition to the literature, there are huge numbers of mental health professionals who are pretty much ignorant about it, having received their training prior to the dissemination of info about AS. Likewise, it closely mimics other diagnoses:

"Say What?
When considering the dozens of descriptions various specialists have been know to apply to persons with AS, we could not help but recall the parable about the blind men and the elephant, in which each man identified the elephant as a different animal depending on which part of it he felt. Often specialists see and identify only the facet of AS that pertains to their area of expertise. Having been identified as having any of these does not exclude your child from having AS.

One Doctor's Asperger Syndrome
is another doctor's PDD-NOS
is yet another doctor's high-functioning autism is a speech pathologists's semantic-pragmatic disorder is a education consultant's nonverbal learning disability is a psychologist's personality disorder"

-The Oasis Guide to Asperger Syndrome
2001
p.85

The champion of Asperger's is probably Dr. Tony Atwood, who has gone farther than anyone else in trying to disseminate info about it, and more importantly to disseminate coping strategies for people with AS.

 

[zoobyshoe]

You were wanting to get personal feedback and not so much technical responses? I was just curious.

I had no idea what the response might be, but was thinking it might possibly lead to "Did Einstein have Asperger's?" since people have thrown that question out in the past without seeming to have researched Asperger's.

 

[pattylou]

What is this? I haven't heard of it.

It's a good read, follows a boy in Britain who has Asperger's, and he witnesses his neighbor's dog murdered. Since he had an easier relationship with the dog than he had with most people, he was really affected by the dog's death. So he sets out to find out what happened.

Told through his perspective, lots of mathematical puzzles sprinkled throughout (like when he got lost and used a logical methodolgy to find the train station instead of asking a stranger), etc.

Most (well, some anyway) technically minded people relate to the main character at a basic level.

Review:

http://mostlyfiction.com/contemp/haddon.htm

Chapter excerpt:

http://mostlyfiction.com/excerpts/curiousincident.htm

-patty

 

[zoobyshoe]

Thanks, Pattylou. I think I'm going to read it.

 

[Happeh]

"In social interaction, many people with Asperger's syndrome demonstrate gaze avoidance and may actually turn away at the same moment as greeting another..."

Asperger Syndrome
Address:http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/

All of that stuff sounds to me like the people have low energy. They are not healthy. Some proper exercise and exposure to the right people would fill them up. Looking away from someone is common when a low energy person meets a high energy person. It is self protection from possession.

Does it say anything about sexual preferences or activities of people with Asperger's?

I noticed the comment "No one likes to talk about Asperger's because we all wonder if we have it". If you had to make a choice, be as smart as you are now, or be social and normal and all that other stuff that Asperger's people are not, what would you choose?

Did you know that labeling something is a form of dominance? A person who can successfully label you, owns you. Back in the day, people were eccentric or odd. No big deal. Aspergers is like a power word. Some wizards over in the Psychology department waved their magic wand and Aspergers bubbled out of the pot. Now instead of feeling inferior to hard scientists, the Psychologists can point at you and say the magic word "Aspergers" and POOF! You are nothing. A little kid embarrassed and ashamed of himself. Hiding so no one sees that he has no social skills and thinks differently from others. That will teach you to say psychologists are not real scientists.

 

[Moonbear]

All of that stuff sounds to me like the people have low energy. They are not healthy. Some proper exercise and exposure to the right people would fill them up. Looking away from someone is common when a low energy person meets a high energy person. It is self protection from possession.

Does it say anything about sexual preferences or activities of people with Asperger's?

I noticed the comment "No one likes to talk about Asperger's because we all wonder if we have it". If you had to make a choice, be as smart as you are now, or be social and normal and all that other stuff that Asperger's people are not, what would you choose?

Did you know that labeling something is a form of dominance? A person who can successfully label you, owns you. Back in the day, people were eccentric or odd. No big deal. Aspergers is like a power word. Some wizards over in the Psychology department waved their magic wand and Aspergers bubbled out of the pot. Now instead of feeling inferior to hard scientists, the Psychologists can point at you and say the magic word "Aspergers" and POOF! You are nothing. A little kid embarrassed and ashamed of himself. Hiding so no one sees that he has no social skills and thinks differently from others. That will teach you to say psychologists are not real scientists.

And now we return this thread to real science. Happeh, you really should read more about Asperger's if you have gotten the impression that diet will cure it.

Zooby, I myself am not clear on what the distinction is between high-functioning autism and Asperger syndrome. I'm under the impression the latter is a subset of the former, but am not clear what the diagnostic criteria would be to determine it's Asperger syndrome specifically.

Recently I met someone who one might wonder if he has Asperger's (or some other high functioning autism type disorder). I don't know if he really did or not, but this is more than just your typical geek or nerd (we were at a party full of scientists, so plenty of geeky/nerdy types present, and he still stood out as even more extreme). When they talk about lack of social skills, we're not talking about someone who just prefers to sit by themself in the corner because they are bored with the conversation or are somewhat introverted, but someone who really doesn't detect the nuances of conversation. He quickly became flustered and didn't quite "get" the jokes being told because he took things totally literally. It's also not just not making eye contact (I know a lot of people uncomfortable looking someone in the eyes, but that's not Asperger's), but that they almost appear to wish they were a turtle that could crawl back into a shell when someone talks to them; they look down, turn away, you may even notice their shoulders hunch, almost like they are cringing away from the conversation rather than just standing with their gaze directed to the floor as a person who is just shy might do.

But, keep in mind with any psychological/psychiatric disorder that having a single symptom does not mean you have the disorder. You always need to consider the full complement of symptoms someone exhibits.

Edit: Ah, here's a site that answers a lot of questions. http://www.aspergers.com/

The diagnostic criteria (DSM-IV) are listed there too.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby, I myself am not clear on what the distinction is between high-functioning autism and Asperger syndrome.

"Rainman" is high functioning autism.

It's also not just not making eye contact (I know a lot of people uncomfortable looking someone in the eyes, but that's not Asperger's),

According to this book, people with Aspergers find eye contact to be an overwhelmingly intense experience. One guy described it as being like staring into bright car headlights. They don't like to look directly into peoples eyes because they can no longer listen properly to what they are saying if they do. In other words, the sheer visual experience of two eyes looking at them is too intense for them to do that and talk at the same time. This is quite distinct from someone who avoids looking people in the eye from fear of their potentially critical judgements, as from "shyness" or "low self esteem". Asperger's people aren't the least bit afraid of being looked at and mentally judged, it is the intensity of the visual experience of other people's gaze that brings them to a standstill.

I believe the same is true of autistic people, who experience some normal everyday things at a level of intensity that is painfull.

but that they almost appear to wish they were a turtle that could crawl back into a shell when someone talks to them; they look down, turn away, you may even notice their shoulders hunch, almost like they are cringing away from the conversation rather than just standing with their gaze directed to the floor as a person who is just shy might do.

This latter doesn't sound like Asperger's. Asperger's people don't present as "shy", despite the lack of eye contact. Aspergers people are much more likely to approach total strangers and bring their favorite subject up out of the blue, then talk about it non-stop.

What they would avoid at a social gathering is "group" discussions, because the more people there are, the less and less able they would be to talk non-stop about their favorite subject uninterrupted. Asperger's people are not good conversationalists but are enthusiastic monologists.

As for not getting jokes; people with Asperger's are baffled by certain kinds of jokes, but they aren't at all humorless. They love specific kinds of humor, and are particularly attracted to word-play, and exaggerated comic characters like you'd find in a Mike Meyer's Austin Powers movie.

But, keep in mind with any psychological/psychiatric disorder that having a single symptom does not mean you have the disorder. You always need to consider the full complement of symptoms someone exhibits.

Absolutely. A single feature means nothing at all. Even having all the features means nothing if they aren't the right quality.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Wired ran an interesting article about Aspergers a few years back: The Geek Syndrome.
I remember this article because I took the test that came with it and scored higher than I was expecting. It looks like the online test is broken but you can still score it manually.

 

[ron damon]

normal people are sickening

 

[Zantra]

aspergers- the ugly brother to autism. It's only in the last few years, to my knowledge, that they've really made progress in identifying aspergers. Before that many as patients were being misdiagnosed as high functioning autistics- as Moonbear pointed out. Oh and Moonbear, since you were asking about diagnostic criteria, here's a pathology:

http://www.aspergers.com/aspbiol.htm

 

[Moonbear]

Wired ran an interesting article about Aspergers a few years back: The Geek Syndrome.
I remember this article because I took the test that came with it and scored higher than I was expecting. It looks like the online test is broken but you can still score it manually.

I came across that article fairly recently, so decided to dig into the literature at the time to see if it held up to scrutiny. Apparently, it hasn't. IIRC, more recent studies have come to the conclusion that it's just that physicians are more aware of the syndrome, so the apparent increases in Aspergers in that area are just better and earlier diagnosis.

Zooby, when I said I thought someone with Aspergers looked like someone wishing they could crawl into a shell, I didn't intend to imply shyness. Actually, I think that fits reasonably well with your clarification of eye contact being too intense to the point of being overwhelming. Your analogy of feeling like they are caught in very bright lights makes sense with what I'm picturing in my mind (even if I'm not explaining that picture well). If you've ever been caught in someone's hi-beam headlights while out walking, you know how you feel like absolutely cringing away from it because it's almost painful. The thing is, they'll keep talking, but really go out of their way to make eye contact.

But, I don't know if the person I met would really meet diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, he might have just been socially inept, but his behaviors did seem very different from anything I've ever seen in people who are shy or introverted, or bad conversationalists, etc.

 

[fileen]

my adopted brother has A.S. he is young and has a really hard time making friends. he is also incredibly smart and has an amazing memory. he doesn't understand jokes. he reminds me of a computer. brilliant but frustrating. our family is use to him, we have no troubles, but he doesn't know how to act in social situations. he doesn't understand personal space. he is caring and loving and seeks relationshis, he just doesn't know how. he has an issue with sound. music seems to almost put him in a trance, and when he isn't thinking about it he makes repetitive sounds without realizing he does it. I don't know much about A.S. but it is not something to be cured with diet. I am slightly offended by the suggestion. he struggles with it. he will all his life. my mother chose to homeschool him because children would beat up on him at school and teachers were cold towards him suggesting he deserved it. yelling at him, trying to force him into knowing, but he cant. my brother has a hard time being accepted for who he is. again I don't know much about it, but I do know that he can not learn it. he has no capacity to do so, and he tries desperately. my brother makes eye contact with me, though I can't say how he is with strangers. he doesn't sit still for long, or do anything for long if it is simple to him and he can do it easily, but his determination is unmatched. he has poor coordination, but when he sets out to do something he will try until he succeeds or physically cannot try any more. he will do great things in life. it is the people who mock his disability who hold him back. if you would like to learn more let me know and I can access my mothers information...she has books and books on the subject

 

[Moonbear]

my mother chose to homeschool him because children would beat up on him at school and teachers were cold towards him suggesting he deserved it. yelling at him, trying to force him into knowing, but he cant.

That is something I've heard about kids with Aspergers. They so badly want to make friends, and misunderstand so many social cues, that they become victims of bullying very easily. When the other kids tell them to do something to make a fool of them, they do it because they think it will make the other kids like them. That part of it makes me very sad, just knowing that a child is desperate to make friends and just doesn't know how and can't, my heart breaks for them. Thank you for sharing about your brother so we can all understand other children with the syndrome a little better.

 

[hypnagogue]

"Rainman" is high functioning autism.

"Rainman" (Kim Peek) is an autistic savant. However, one needn't be a savant in order to be a high functioning autistic.

I haven't done extensive reading on this topic, but I have some insight since my brother is a high functioning autistic. If you were to meet my brother, you'd be able to tell he isn't a cognitively normal individual pretty quickly. He's shy around strangers, but if you can engage him in conversation you find pretty quickly that he has a limited vocabulary and difficulty stringing together sentences. He does OK with smaller and more basic sentences, but runs into trouble for longer ones or ones that convey more complex or subtle ideas. You can tell he's thinking about things and has an active, inquisitive mind, but he has a hard time expressing himself and understanding more complicated concepts, and as a result his view of the world is pretty naive and child-like (he's 17 now). His linguistic skills are far behind someone like Kim Peek, and he doesn't have any special savant skills either. I imagine he's much more heavily afflicted by autism than people who are only diagnosed with Asperger's. Besides the linguistic skills, he also has a strong propensity to get completely absorbed into various activities like watching movies, listening to music, or playing video games, and if he is interrupted during this time he can get rather upset or anxious.

He's been diagnosed as high functioning, though, because of where he stands relative to most other autistic children. I volunteered at an afterschool program that he attended with other autistic children from a span of about 8-10 years ago, so I've been able to see the difference firsthand. While his language skills are limited, he was still far ahead of most of the autistic children at the program. I might be biased, but it seemed to me that even compared to children at a comparable level, he came off as more 'normal' in terms of personality and speech vocalizations during conversation. Probably the biggest difference, though, is behavioral. If you were to observe my brother from a distance without talking to him, you wouldn't be able to tell that he wasn't a cognitively normal person. He doesn't engage in stereotyped or repetetive behaviors like hand-flapping or otherwise abnormal movements and physical behaviors, and in general is on a pretty even keel emotionally. These factors contributed to his being able to work very well in the applied behavioral analysis sessions they administered to the autistic children, which is where I imagine he earned the label of 'high functioning.' He might be able to hold down a low end job someday, which is indicative of his high functioning character. However, I don't think it's by any means a given that he will be able to, which marks his case as more severe than Asperger's.

I find the thing about eye contact interesting, because in my brother's case he not only has no problems with it, but often seeks to establish it (at least for me and my parents). He doesn't seem to exhibit any gross sensory sensitivities in general, although he may have when he was younger. (He used to be terrified of the vacuum, and we think it was because of the noises it made, but nowadays he volunteers to vacuum himself.)

 

[zoobyshoe]

"Rainman" (Kim Peek) is an autistic savant. However, one needn't be a savant in order to be a high functioning autistic.

I've never heard of Kim Peek. I meant Rainman/Dustin Hoffman, a popular movie I figured Moonbear would know about, which accurately portrayed high functioning autism, (and also, incidently, savant-ism.)

Yes, "high functioning" has nothing in particular to do with those who are also savants.

I am not, to my own private satisfaction, convinced that Asperger's is really a form of autism. The resemblences strike me as superficial. To the extent they've found anything wrong with the brains of Asperger's people it seems all to be left hemishere lesions. With autistic people the main problem they find is an undersized cerebellum. All this kind of research has been spotty and inconclusive, though.

Has your brother ever had an MRI or CT scan, Hyp?

 

[hypnagogue]

I've never heard of Kim Peek. I meant Rainman/Dustin Hoffman, a popular movie I figured Moonbear would know about, which accurately portrayed high functioning autism, (and also, incidently, savant-ism.)

Hoffman's character in Rainman is inspired by Kim Peek. (see the link)

Has your brother ever had an MRI or CT scan, Hyp?

I'm pretty sure he hasn't.

 

[zoobyshoe]

But, I don't know if the person I met would really meet diagnostic criteria for Aspergers, he might have just been socially inept, but his behaviors did seem very different from anything I've ever seen in people who are shy or introverted, or bad conversationalists, etc.

People with Asperger's are socially inept in a very specific way for a very specific reason, which is the lack of "theory of mind". The gaze thing is a separate problem, and isn't the cause or main feature of their social ineptitude.

The lack of "theory of mind" leads to them approaching total strangers with a kind of astonishing naivte. One book I read illustrated this with an incident where an Asperger's person walked up to an obese girl and said: "So, I see you're fat. What's it like to be fat?"

Bashe and Kirby list 10 consequences of this "mindblindness":

1. Insensitivity to other peope's feelings
2. Inability to take into account what other people know
3. Inability to negotiate friendships by reading and responding to intentons
4. Inability to read the listener's level of interest in one's speech
5. In ability to detect a speaker's intended meaning
6. Inability to anticipate what others might think of one's actions
7. Inability to understand misunderstandings
8. Inability to decieve or understand deceptions
9. Inability to understand the reasons behind people's actions
10. Inability to understand "unwritten rules" or conventions

-The Oasis Guide to Asperger Syndrome
p. 310

At Princeton, unsophisticated and socially unschooled Richard Feynman was invited to "high tea" many times. The first time he went he was asked if he wanted lemon or milk. "Both" he said, with no clue. "Surely, you must be jokng, Mr. Feynman!" the socialite woman who was pouring replied. Later, she says the same thing in connection with something else he's said. Suddenly, Feynman has an insight! She's telling him he has made a social blunder. That, he realizes, is what "Surely you must be jokng!" means: it's a hint, a clue: "You have made a social faux pas."

That is the kind of insight Asperger's people never have.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Hoffman's character in Rainman is inspired by Kim Peek. (see the link)

deseretnews.com | NASA scientists taking a peek at Utahn's brain
Address:http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,595103605,00.html

They are saying this guy has no separation between the hemispheres of his brain! Amazing!