2.2.16 (a) intial value (b) interval

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving the initial value problem for the differential equation $\displaystyle y^{\prime}= \frac{x(x^2+1)}{4y^3}$ with the initial condition $y(0)=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}$. Participants explore the integration process, the role of the constant of integration, and the implications of taking the fourth root of the resulting expression.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning, Debate/contested, Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants rewrite the differential equation and perform integration, arriving at the expression $\displaystyle y^4=\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{x^2}{2} + C$.
  • There is a discussion about the constant of integration, with one participant suggesting it should be included to satisfy the initial condition.
  • Another participant points out that the fourth power of a real number cannot be negative, raising concerns about the validity of the derived constant.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the sign of the constant and the implications for the solution, particularly when evaluating at $x=0$.
  • One participant suggests a substitution method for integration, proposing an alternative approach to derive the solution.
  • There is a mention of the concept of "branches" in relation to the fourth root, with a focus on ensuring the correct sign for the solution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct approach to the problem, with multiple competing views on the integration process, the handling of the constant of integration, and the interpretation of the fourth root.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved issues regarding the assumptions made during integration, the treatment of the constant of integration, and the implications of taking roots of negative values. The discussion reflects varying interpretations of the mathematical steps involved.

karush
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(a) intial value (b) interval
$\displaystyle y^{\prime}= \frac{x(x^2+1)}{4y^3}, \quad y(0)=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}$
rewrite
$$\displaystyle\d{y}{x}=\frac{x(x^2+1)}{4y^3}$$
$$\displaystyle y^3\, dy=\frac{x(x^2+1)}{4}\, dx$$
integrate
$$\displaystyle\frac{y^4}{4}= \frac{1}{4}\left(\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}\right)$$
$$\displaystyle y^4=\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}$$so far hopefully sorta?
 
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karush said:
(a) intial value (b) interval
$\displaystyle y^{\prime}= \frac{x(x^2+1)}{4y^3}, \quad y(0)=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}$
rewrite
$$\displaystyle\d{y}{x}=\frac{x(x^2+1)}{4y^3}$$
$$\displaystyle y^3\, dy=\frac{x(x^2+1)}{4}\, dx$$
integrate
$$\displaystyle\frac{y^4}{4}= \frac{1}{4}\left(\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}\right)$$
$$\displaystyle y^4=\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}$$so far hopefully sorta?
Almost- you haven't included the "constant of integration" You should have
$$\displaystyle y^4=\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}+ C$$

Now choose C so that when x= 0, $y= -\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}$
 
$\displaystyle y^4=\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}+ C$
but what about $y^4$
then
$y=\left[\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}\right]^{1/4}$
so where does C go
 
That's basic algebra, isn't it? If $y^4= A$ then $y= A^{1/4}$. Since $y^4= \frac{x^4}{4}+ \frac{x^2}{2}$, $y= \left(\frac{x^4}{4}+ \frac{x^2}{2}+ C\right)^{1/4}$.
 
So C is in inside the radical!

$$y=\left[\frac{x^4}{4} +\frac{ x^2}{2}+ C\right]^{1/4}$$
\begin{align}
y(0)&=\left[\frac{0}{4} +\frac{ 0}{2}+ C\right]^{1/4}=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\\
&=C^{1/4}=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\\
&=C=\left(-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\right)^4=-\frac{1}{4}\\
\end{align}
 
Last edited:
The fourth power or a real number is never negative!
 
ok the book answer to this is
$$(a)\quad y=-\sqrt{ (x^2 + 1)/2} \quad (c) −∞ < x < ∞$$

doesn't look I am approaching it.:confused:

$$\begin{align}
y(0)&=\left[\frac{0}{4} +\frac{ 0}{2}+ C\right]^{1/4}=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\\
&=C^{1/4}=-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\\
&=C=\left(-\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\right)^4=\frac{1}{4}\\
\end{align}$$
 
You've lost the negative sign. (0+ 0+ \frac{1}{4})^{1/4}= \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} not -\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}. To have a negative after the fourth root you need a negative outside the root.

Let's go back to the beginning. Your differential equation is \frac{dy}{dx}= \frac{x(x^2+ 1)}{4y^3}. You can separate that as 4y^3dy= x(x^2+ 1)dx. The left side integrates to y^4. Yes, on the right, you can write this as (x^3+ x)dx and integrate as \frac{x^4}{4}+ \frac{x^2}{2}+ C. If we now include the condition that y(0)= -\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} we have y^4= \frac{1}{4}= C so that y^4= \frac{x^4}{4}+ frac{x^2}{2}+ \frac{1}{4}. To solve for y take the fourth root. But a positive real number has two real fourth roots (and two imaginary). To make sure we have the branch that is negative when x= 0, we have to put the negative sign in explicitely: y= -\left(\frac{x^4}{4}+ \frac{x^2}{2}+ \frac{1}{4}\right)^{1/4}.<br /> <br /> But when integrating x(x^2+ 1)dx I would b inclined to use the substition u= x^2+ 1 so that du= 2xdx and xdx= \frac{u}{2}du. Integrating that gives \frac{u^2}{4}+ C= \frac{(x^2+ 1)^2}{4}+ C.<br /> <br /> So we can also write y^4= \frac{(x^2+ 1)^2}{4}+ C. For x= 0 we have \frac{1}{4}= \frac{1}{4}+ Cso that C= 0. y^4= \frac{(x^2+ 1)^2}{4}. Taking the fourth root (and making sure we have the right branch) y= -\sqrt{\frac{x^2+ 1}}{2}} as your book has.
 
what do you mean by branch?

that was a tricky last steps
 
Last edited:
  • #10
As I said, x^4= a has, for any positive number a, four roots, two real and two pure imaginary. Those are the four "branches" I was referring to. You want the one that is real and negative.
 

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