Ancient Armenian Wine So Would You?

[nismaratwork]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110111/lf_nm_life/us_wine_oldest

It appears that archaeologists just pushed wine-making back another THOUSAND years, in a cave in Armenia! Even more exciting, they found a press, remnants of grape-skin... and seeds.

So... would you take a tipple of an ancient hybrid grape, made into wine with methods used at the time? I think I would, just to see what it tastes like, and to think about the vast history involved.

 

[lisab]

Sure I would! Just a sip though, I'm not a big drinker.

Well OK, I'd give it a cautious sniff first.

 

[nismaratwork]

Sure I would! Just a sip though, I'm not a big drinker.

Well OK, I'd give it a cautious sniff first.

Yeah, I hate wine, but this is history! Still, I like the sniff idea... maybe a pH test too... and a poison taster? Hey Evo!

 

[Evo]

Yeah, I hate wine, but this is history! Still, I like the sniff idea... maybe a pH test too... and a poison taster? Hey Evo!

Hey! I heard it would be nasty stuff. Even in the time of England's King Henry VIII, the wine was so bad that it had to be mixed with sugar to even be drinkable.

 

[nismaratwork]

Hey! I heard it would be nasty stuff. Even in the time of England's King Henry VIII, the wine was so bad that it had to be mixed with sugar to even be drinkable.

Oh no doubt it would be hellish... but the history...

 

[Evo]

Oh no doubt it would be hellish... but the history...

the ancient athlete's foot...shedded skin...sores

Yeah, I'd want to taste it.

 

[nismaratwork]

the ancient athlete's foot...shedded skin...sores

Yeah, I'd want to taste it.

SIX THOUSAND YEARS!... We can autoclave it.


History doesn't have to be icky. Anyway, remember, the Romans honeyed their wine to make it (barely) palatable... they still drank plenty of it! I don't drink at all, but for this I'd take a sip. You'd be tasting something that people drank over 6000 years ago, not exactly, but close. I think that would be... heady.

 

[Evo]

SIX THOUSAND YEARS!... We can autoclave it.


History doesn't have to be icky. Anyway, remember, the Romans honeyed their wine to make it (barely) palatable... they still drank plenty of it! I don't drink at all, but for this I'd take a sip. You'd be tasting something that people drank over 6000 years ago, not exactly, but close. I think that would be... heady.

I want to go back in time and experience what they did.

Of course I would want to do it competley immune to what ever diseases they had, not part of the dangers they dealt with with. Just your typical tourist.

 

[nismaratwork]

I want to go back in time and experience what they did.

Of course I would want to do it competley immune to what ever diseases they had, not part of the dangers they dealt with with. Just your typical tourist.

Well, this would be a good chance to do that in a very small way... you could do it with a different press made to specs, and adopt sanitary methods. If might be a little less spicy then they had in in the old "BCE", but I bet it still packs the punch of old vinegar.

 

[Proton Soup]

can wine really be that hard to make? i know my grandfather made blackberry and muscadine wine. and i hear it wasn't bad.

 

[Evo]

Consider what "grapes" were like thousands of years ago, nothing like what we have now.

 

[nismaratwork]

can wine really be that hard to make? i know my grandfather made blackberry and muscadine wine. and i hear it wasn't bad.

Monkeys are reported to do it sometimes... although if so it would be a lambic beer.

Evo: EXACTLY! I realize they've improved greatly, but that's the whole point. Hell, what if they find a gene that can help with a blight, or something equally interesting? This is great in my view.

 

[collinsmark]

Older wine does not necessarily equate with better wine. As wine ages it reaches a peak in its desirable characteristics (and when this peak occurs depends heavily on the particular type of wine, and even the particular batch of wine). Beyond that peak, the wine may gradually taste worse and worse as it ages more. I speculate that a 6000 year old bottle wine would taste pretty nasty -- even if it did taste delicious some 5950 years ago.

 

[Proton Soup]

Consider what "grapes" were like thousands of years ago, nothing like what we have now.

have you eaten muscadines and scuppernongs? thick, leathery skin that makes your lips itch.

 

[nismaratwork]

Older wine does not necessarily equate with better wine. As wine ages it reaches a peak in its desirable characteristics (and when this peak occurs depends heavily on the particular type of wine, and even the particular batch of wine). Beyond that peak, the wine may gradually taste worse and worse as it ages more. I speculate that a 6000 year old bottle wine would taste pretty nasty -- even if it did taste delicious some 5950 years ago.

Oh god, that would probably be genuinely toxic now! This isn't an amphora of wine or something along that vein, just seeds and the mechanisms for making it: any wine drunk would have to be made according to that method, with the recipe (if it can be determined) because wine wasn't usually just a press and 'bottle' affair.

 

[fillipeano]

I wonder how it smells.. I might try it with a nice bit of cheese

 

[nismaratwork]

I wonder how it smells.. I might try it with a nice bit of cheese

At the risk of seeming to backpedal, I think after drinking this kind of brew, even by the droop, you'd want something more along the lines of an emetic. I'd enjoy the history, but as Evo has been warning, it would come with a price; I don't think a good cheese deserves such treatment!

Maybe with a nice jalapeno to cover the burn...

 

[Proton Soup]

At the risk of seeming to backpedal, I think after drinking this kind of brew, even by the droop, you'd want something more along the lines of an emetic. I'd enjoy the history, but as Evo has been warning, it would come with a price; I don't think a good cheese deserves such treatment!

Maybe with a nice jalapeno to cover the burn...

i just started taking microbiology, and our instructor mentioned something about the old problems with making beer and wine had to do with contaminating the brew with undesirable organisms. given that we're a bit more aware of hygiene these days, it might be possible to do the old recipes without as much risk.

 

[nismaratwork]

i just started taking microbiology, and our instructor mentioned something about the old problems with making beer and wine had to do with contaminating the brew with undesirable organisms. given that we're a bit more aware of hygiene these days, it might be possible to do the old recipes without as much risk.

It's an exciting prospect, and maybe the lack of "germ funk" would improve palatability. Of course, one of those lovely organisms got into something, and now we have beer, bread, yogurt and sauerkraut... although ideally not all together at one meal.

 

[Proton Soup]

It's an exciting prospect, and maybe the lack of "germ funk" would improve palatability. Of course, one of those lovely organisms got into something, and now we have beer, bread, yogurt and sauerkraut... although ideally not all together at one meal.

i believe he said the yeast are already in the wax on the surface of the grape. I've also seen some of those food network shows where it was claimed that the tastiest grapes in the vineyard are the ones with a bit of mold growing on them. and, I'm not so averse to overripe fruit, myself. when i was a kid, we had fruit trees, and the best plums are the ones that have fallen to the ground and you have to brush the ants off them.

yeah, a little funk is good, afaic.

 

[nismaratwork]

i believe he said the yeast are already in the wax on the surface of the grape. I've also seen some of those food network shows where it was claimed that the tastiest grapes in the vineyard are the ones with a bit of mold growing on them. and, I'm not so averse to overripe fruit, myself. when i was a kid, we had fruit trees, and the best plums are the ones that have fallen to the ground and you have to brush the ants off them.

yeah, a little funk is good, afaic.

Ahhh, the "noble rot", I think is what you mean re: the sweet grapes. Basically a fungus does part of the work breaking down complex sugars, and the resulting wine is somewhat sweet. I'd argue those plums you mentioned aren't overripe either, it's just that people often ignore perfectly good food in this country.

 

[Evo]

i believe he said the yeast are already in the wax on the surface of the grape. I've also seen some of those food network shows where it was claimed that the tastiest grapes in the vineyard are the ones with a bit of mold growing on them. and, I'm not so averse to overripe fruit, myself. when i was a kid, we had fruit trees, and the best plums are the ones that have fallen to the ground and you have to brush the ants off them.

yeah, a little funk is good, afaic.

You might enjoy reading this book. I read it a few months ago, I love these old medical books.

Irritation, and even fatal inflamma-
tion of the intestine, have resulted from the indigestible skins of
certain fruits, as plums.

http://www.archive.org/stream/foodsomeaccounto00churrich/foodsomeaccounto00churrich_djvu.txt

 

[Proton Soup]

You might enjoy reading this book. I read it a few months ago, I love these old medical books.



http://www.archive.org/stream/foodsomeaccounto00churrich/foodsomeaccounto00churrich_djvu.txt

1902! yes, some of that old stuff is fun. but like weston price, you got to take it with a bit of salt.

i like this old diet book: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15069/15069-h/15069-h.htm

and also an old book heralding the end of an era http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8084/pg8084.html

 

[Evo]

1902! yes, some of that old stuff is fun. but like weston price, you got to take it with a bit of salt.

i like this old diet book: http://www.gutenberg.org/files/15069/15069-h/15069-h.htm

and also an old book heralding the end of an era http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8084/pg8084.html

I've bookmarked those.

Try this

The pioneer, in England, of the treatment of all sorts and conditions of disease by means of a vegetable (chiefly fruit) dietary was Dr. Lambe, a contemporary of the poet Shelley. His last book appeared in 1815, and in it and the one preceding are recorded some wonderful cures, especially in cases of cancer. It is only fair to add here that in Dr. Lambe's opinion no system of cure is completely efficacious so long as the patient is allowed to drink the ordinary tap or well water. Distilled water was the only drink he advised.[Pg 11] But he held it better still not to drink at all if the necessary liquid could be supplied to the body by means of fresh, juicy fruits. He contended that man is not naturally a drinking animal; that his thirst is a morbid symptom, the outcome of a carnivorous diet and other unwholesome habits.

http://ia700100.us.archive.org/3/items/foodremedies18487gut/18487-h/18487-h.htm#A_Pioneer_of_Food_Remedies

From the 1902 book, you will find that is is before calories and vitamins were discovered.

According to Frankland, i Ib. of oatmeal, when digested and
oxidized in the body, might liberate force equal to 2,439 tons
raised i ft. high.

That is how they measured caloric values.

The food groups were

Water. Albuminoids. Starch and Fat as Starch. Salts

Ok, I am a food history geek.

 

[Proton Soup]

I've boookmarked those.

Try this

http://ia700100.us.archive.org/3/items/foodremedies18487gut/18487-h/18487-h.htm#A_Pioneer_of_Food_Remedies

that is interesting. it's always fun to try and decipher what was really going on. the first thing popping in my head is that the remedy isolates the poor victim from contaminated water. and gets them some much needed vitamin C and other nutrients that may have been lacking and help them fight off the infection (mistaken as a "cancer"). rose hips (a vitamin C source the brits used during the war) were actually used with some success many years earlier for bubonic plague.

From the 1902 book, you will find that is is before calories and vitamins were discovered.

That is how they measured caloric values.

The food groups were

hey, i think that's a perfectly valid way to express joules!

water, proteins, carbs, fat, minerals... not so bad

 

[nismaratwork]

I've bookmarked those.

Try this

http://ia700100.us.archive.org/3/items/foodremedies18487gut/18487-h/18487-h.htm#A_Pioneer_of_Food_Remedies

From the 1902 book, you will find that is is before calories and vitamins were discovered.

That is how they measured caloric values.

The food groups were

Ok, I am a food history geek.

I can see why! Interesting stuff.