Apparent superluminal velocity in M82 source

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the phenomenon of apparent superluminal motion observed in a radio source in the M82 galaxy, specifically addressing the relativistic effects that could create the illusion of velocities exceeding the speed of light. Participants explore the implications of these observations in the context of astrophysics and the nature of light travel time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that the apparent motion of the M82 source is reported to be four times the speed of light, raising questions about the relativistic effects involved.
  • One participant suggests that the phenomenon is not purely relativistic but rather a consequence of the finite speed of light, explaining how light travel time can create an optical illusion of superluminal velocities.
  • A mathematical model is presented to illustrate how apparent horizontal velocity can be derived from the object's actual velocity and its angle of motion relative to the observer.
  • Another participant draws an analogy to a fast-approaching jet fighter, suggesting that the perception of speed can be skewed by the timing of sound waves reaching the observer.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the observed superluminal motion is primarily a relativistic effect or a result of light travel time. There is no consensus on the explanation for the phenomenon, as some argue for a relativistic interpretation while others emphasize the role of light propagation.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the phenomenon, with discussions highlighting the need for careful consideration of angles, velocities, and the effects of light travel time. Mathematical derivations presented are contingent on specific assumptions about the object's motion and the observer's perspective.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying astrophysics, particularly in the areas of relativistic motion, observational astronomy, and the interpretation of high-velocity astronomical phenomena.

jackiefrost
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An April 18 newscientist.com article, http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18775-mysterious-radio-waves-emitted-from-nearby-galaxy.html" reports recent observations of a radio source in M82 with an apparent horizontal motion of 4x speed of light.
Yet it does seem to be moving – and fast: its apparent sideways velocity is four times the speed of light. Such apparent "superluminal" motion has been seen before in high-speed jets of material squirted out by some black holes. The stuff in these jets is moving towards us at a slight angle and traveling at a fair fraction of the speed of light, and the effects of relativity produce a kind of optical illusion that makes the motion appear superluminal.
Could someone comment on what particular relativistic effects would cause an "optical illusion" of superluminal velocities. What specific empirical measurements are they referring to that would indicate apparent superluminal velocities?
 
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jackiefrost said:
An April 18 newscientist.com article, http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn18775-mysterious-radio-waves-emitted-from-nearby-galaxy.html" reports recent observations of a radio source in M82 with an apparent horizontal motion of 4x speed of light.

Could someone comment on what particular relativistic effects would cause an "optical illusion" of superluminal velocities. What specific empirical measurements are they referring to that would indicate apparent superluminal velocities?

It is a common effect that occurs when an object is moving at high velocity almost towards you. It is not a relativistic effect so much as a consequence of the finite speed of light.

Suppose, for example, that something is moving at an angle of θ away from directly towards you, at a velocity v, and you know that it is a distance away from you d.

Suppose that two signals are sent from this object, separated in time Δt. (Forget any relativistic effects. Everything is done in your own reference from.) Now over that time, it moves a distance v.Δt. We break this into two components; it is closer to you by v.Δt.cos(θ), and it has moved orthogonal to the line of sight by v.Δt.sin(θ). The latter corresponds to an apparent horizontal movement across the sky.

Note, however, the second signal has less distance to go to reach you. Therefore it arrives after a shorter period of time Δt(1 - (v/c).cos(θ)). This is simply subtracting the time it would have taken light to go that extra distance towards you, which is (v/c).Δt.cos(θ).

If you forget to consider this advantage in time, you might think that the time the object took was the time between the two signals to be observed, rather than the time between the two signals being emitted.

The apparent horizontal velocity of the object is thus a = v.sin(θ)/(1 - (v/c).cos(θ)).

Using units with c = 1, if you differentiate this with respect to θ, assuming v fixed, you get
\begin{align*}<br /> a &amp; = \frac{v \sin \theta}{1 - v \cos \theta} \\<br /> \frac{\partial a}{\partial \theta} &amp; = v\frac{\cos \theta ( 1 - v \cos \theta ) - \sin \theta ( v \sin \theta )}{(1 - v \cos \theta)^2} \\<br /> &amp; = c \frac{\cos \theta - v}{(1 - v \cos \theta)^2}<br /> \end{align*}​

Thus, when v = cos(θ) you get a maximum apparent velocity, which works out to be
\frac{v}{\sqrt{1-v^2}}​

If I have the maths right, then you can get an apparent horizontal velocity of 4c if the v was about 97% lightspeed, and the particle was moving at about 14 degrees off directly towards you.

Cheers -- sylas
 
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Could someone comment on what particular relativistic effects would cause an "optical illusion" of superluminal velocities.
It's not really a relativistic effect, it's simply light travel time. The object approaches you at close to the speed of light, so the light sent from different positions reaches the observer in fast forward.
The acoustic analogue is fast approaching jet fighter. From what you hear, you'd guess that it traveled at Mach 10, so quickly changes the sound. The extreme is a sonic boom, when all the sound arrives in a single moment.
 
Sorry for the long delay. Both your explanations and the analysis makes good sense. Thank you both very much.
 

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