Archeology: Mammoth engravings in Florida

  • Thread starter Thread starter Andre
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the discovery of mammoth engravings in Florida, focusing on the archaeological significance and dating of the findings. Participants explore the implications for understanding prehistoric art and the timeline of human and proboscidean interactions in North America.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants highlight the uniqueness of the mammoth engravings in America compared to similar findings in Europe, noting the significance of this discovery.
  • There is a question regarding whether the 13,000-year age is based on carbon dating or calibrated age, with one participant suggesting it might be derived from earlier investigations rather than direct dating.
  • Another participant compares the mineralization of the Florida bone to younger mammoth remains from the North Sea, suggesting that the mineralization process may differ and questioning the age attribution.
  • One participant references a publication that discusses the authenticity of the engravings and the implications of the 13,000-year timeline, indicating that more recent populations would not have encountered mammoths.
  • There is a suggestion that the development of a method to date mineralized bone could help resolve ongoing questions about ancient inhabitants of America.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the dating of the bone and the implications for the Clovis first hypothesis. There is no consensus on the age or the methods of dating, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the mineralization and its effects on dating accuracy.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include uncertainty about the dating methods used and the implications of mineralization on age estimates. The discussion also reflects varying interpretations of the archaeological evidence and its significance.

Andre
Messages
4,296
Reaction score
73
This can be related to a lot of specialities, but I guess the archeologic element is the most interesting.

http://www.sciencecodex.com/scientists_reveal_a_first_in_ice_age_art

..."This is an incredibly exciting discovery," said Dennis Stanford, anthropologist at the Smithsonian's National Museum of Natural History and co-author of this research. "There are hundreds of depictions of proboscideans on cave walls and carved into bones in Europe, but none from America—until now."...

[PLAIN]http://www.sciencecodex.com/aggregated-images/tech/a3J23Y0dvTq78qk6.jpg[/quote]

I asked my paleontologic friend if he could determine the bone and I wonder if the 13,000 years is a carbon date or a calibrated age. If a 14C date, it would calibrate to ~15,400 calendar years (INTCAL09), putting more and more question marks to the Clovis first hypothesis.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Science news on Phys.org
Andre said:
I asked my paleontologic friend if he could determine the bone and I wonder if the 13,000 years is a carbon date or a calibrated age. If a 14C date, it would calibrate to ~15,400 calendar years (INTCAL09), putting more and more question marks to the Clovis first hypothesis.

It is neither. It is an estimated age derived from the much earlier investigation at Vero Beach, and they do not expect they can date this bone because of its heavy mineralization.
 
Interesting. For comparison the youngest mammoth bones and remains from the North Sea which date before the last glacial maximum, i.c. around 30,000 years, are not mineralized (Fauna association III). No doubt that the mineralization process in Florida is different but 13ky seems a bit short still.

Also an interesting study about the skills of the artists
 
Last edited:
Nilequeen was kind enough to share some information directly from the publication, Purdy et al, 2011; Earliest Art in the Americas: Incised Image of a Proboscidean on a Mineralized Extinct Animal Bone from Vero Beach Journal of Archaeological Science, 2 June 2011

The main scope was a thorough hi tech forensic research to verify its authenticity, which it passed on all counts.

About the age of 13 ky:

...The incising would have to be at least 13,000 years old as this is the date for the last appearance of these animals in eastern North America (Faith and Surovell 2009; Grayson and Meltzer 2003; Steadman et al. 2005), and more recent Precolumbian people would not have seen a mammoth or mastodon to draw.

There you go. no new information and no challenging of anything. On the contrary, unless the mentioned references falsify it, there is some evidence that the http://eolspecies.lifedesks.org/pages/19700. So theoretically it could be (much) younger. But the mineralization of the bone would oppose that.

Anyway,

...Additionally, the development of a method to date mineralized bone is needed and, if successful, would furnish a valuable means to solve persisting problems about America’s ancient inhabitants...

Absolutely.
 
Last edited by a moderator: