Are there closed curve solutions for these ODE constraints?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the existence of closed curve solutions for a specific set of ordinary differential equation (ODE) constraints involving a vector function \(\mathbf{v}(t) \in \mathbb{R}^3\). The primary focus is on the condition that the acceleration is orthogonal to the position vector, raising questions about the nature of the solutions, whether they are trivial or non-trivial, and the implications of these constraints.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant queries the existence of closed curve solutions under the constraint \(\mathbf{v}(t) \cdot \frac{d^2}{dt^2}\mathbf{v} = 0\).
  • Another participant suggests that all solutions of the form \(v(t) = a \cdot t + v_0\) are trivial, implying that only straight-line trajectories exist unless the velocity is identically zero.
  • A third participant clarifies that the equation indicates acceleration is orthogonal to position, which does not necessarily imply that acceleration is zero, leaving open the possibility of non-trivial solutions.
  • One participant mentions that while trivial solutions are still valid, they are uncertain about any solutions where acceleration is orthogonal to position, referencing the logarithmic spiral as a potential but imperfect example.
  • A later reply asserts that non-trivial solutions do exist, providing a specific case involving a fourth-order ODE that yields real solutions for the components of the velocity vector.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the solutions, with some asserting that only trivial solutions exist while others propose that non-trivial solutions are possible. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the existence and characterization of these solutions.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves assumptions about the nature of the velocity and acceleration vectors, as well as the implications of orthogonality in the context of the specified ODE constraints. The mathematical steps leading to the proposed non-trivial solutions are not fully explored.

MisterX
Messages
758
Reaction score
71
Are there closed curve solutions for ##\mathbf{v}(t) \in \mathbb{R}^3## satisfying this constraint?
$$\mathbf{v}(t) \cdot \frac{d^2}{dt^2}\mathbf{v} = 0 $$
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
I do not understand your question. All velocities of type v(t) = a⋅t + v0 are trivial solutions.
 
Unless v(t) is identically 0, so there is no motion at all, you equation just says that the acceleration is 0 so, as Svein says, the only solutions are straight line trajectories.
 
Thanks for your replies. To be clear I meant

$$\sum_{i=1}^3 v_i \frac{d^2 v_i}{d t^2} = 0 $$

In other words acceleration is orthogonal to position. So ##\mathbf{v}(t) \neq 0## does not obviously (to me) imply ##\frac{d^2}{dt^2}\mathbf{v}(t) = 0##. I may still be that the trivial solutions mentioned above are the only ones, but I'm not sure at the moment.
 
MisterX said:
In other words acceleration is orthogonal to position.
Ah. That is a different proposition. Of course, the trivial solutions are still solutions, but...

If an object rotates in a circle around a point, the acceleration is orthogonal to velocity, but I do not know offhand any solution to acceleration orthogonal to position. A logarithmic spiral springs to mind, but there acceleration is never quite orthogonal to position (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logarithmic_spiral ).
 
Yes non-trivial solutions exist.

Consider the case where \frac{d^2}{dt^2} v_x = v_z ,\frac{d^2}{dt^2}v_z = - v_x, and v_y=0.

Here \vec V \cdot \frac{d^2}{dt^2}\vec V =0.

You can solve for v_x and v_z. This amounts to solving the 4-th order ODE \frac{d^4}{dt^4} v_x + v_x =0. Real solutions to this equation exist. The resulting expression for v_z is also real.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: MisterX

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
704
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
0
Views
2K