Autonomy vs The Obligation to Conform to a Wider Community

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Discussion Overview

The discussion explores the concepts of autonomy and social conformity, questioning whether individuals are truly autonomous or if their decisions are heavily influenced by societal norms and expectations. Participants examine this topic from various perspectives, including sociological, psychological, and philosophical angles, with references to specific examples such as marriage and authority dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that most individuals are conforming and influenced by social conditioning, with logic playing a limited role in decision-making.
  • Others argue that the need for social acceptance drives people to align their beliefs and behaviors with those of their peers, particularly in contexts like friendships and cults.
  • One participant raises the question of whether autonomy equates to free will, referencing Eric Berne's "Transactional Analysis" to discuss the internal components influencing behavior.
  • Concerns are expressed regarding the structural issues in marriage, with a participant noting the high divorce rates as indicative of societal pressures and changes in the institution of marriage.
  • Another participant references the Milgram experiment to illustrate the disturbing extent to which individuals may obey authority figures, challenging the notion of free will in the face of social influence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of autonomy versus social conformity, with multiple competing views presented regarding the extent of social influence on individual decision-making.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments depend on specific definitions of autonomy and free will, and the discussion includes references to historical changes in societal structures, such as marriage, without resolving the implications of these changes.

Miriam Perkins
Are we truly autonomous beings or is our every decision and attitude dependent on the society in which we live?

For instance, consider marriage. Inside a marriage a man and a woman may experience personal troubles, but when the divorce rate during the first 4 years of marriage is 250 out of every 1,000 attempts, this is an indication of a structural issue. (Mills, 1959) (The Sociological Imagination)

Our priorities seem to be based upon being liked rather than to speak the truth. We do not, or rarely, publicly doubt ideas to which the majority is committed. We seek the approval of figures of authority and worry at length whether they think us acceptable.

Neither the life of an individual nor the history of a society can be understood without understanding both
- . (Mills, 1959) (The Sociological Imagination)

I also like to consider Marxist Perfectionism vs Liberalism. MP is the notion of prohibiting people from making the wrong decision. ...to what degree should one allow people personal freedom when taking into account the 'common good'?

I am currently writing an essay for my Philosophy unit at university and would like to see other opinions about the notions of autonomy, not just from a philosophical or sociological perspective but also from a psychological and biological perspective also.
 
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Miriam Perkins said:
Are we truly autonomous beings or is our every decision and attitude dependent on the society in which we live?
Most but not all people are very conforming. Very few people are completely free of social conditioning. Logic plays a quite limited role in the lives of most. They just do what everyone else is doing.
 
Hornbein said:
Most but not all people are very conforming. Very few people are completely free of social conditioning. Logic plays a quite limited role in the lives of most. They just do what everyone else is doing.

Why do you think they do this?
 
Eric Berne's "Transactional Analysis" it seems to me is telling that every person is of three parts, the "Parent" within us which is the taught concept of life-we were programmed by our superiors when we were kids… the "Adult" within us which is the thought concept of life-the critical thinker… and the "Child" within us which is the emotional concept of life... e.g. it's emotionally rewarding to be "liked". http://www.businessballs.com/transact.htm

Btw, is autonomy the same as free will? the wikipedia article about free will maybe helpful. The most important part of a wikipedia page is the reference section, I saw (#14) is about autonomy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will
 
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Miriam Perkins said:
Why do you think they do this?

They feel comfortable around people who are similar to themselves. They fear and mistrust the unknown and strange, as it is unpredictable and possibly dangerous.

The life of very wealthy people is particularly codified and very conformist. I met quite a few at school. In that society it is very important to be trusted and predictable.

Most people don't follow logic. They believe what their friends believe. This is particularly apparent in cults. Conversely, if you don't believe what your friends believe -- or don't at least pretend to believe what they believe -- then you may not remain their friend long.

People need friends, customers, etc. It is a basic need. It makes sense to behave in such a way as to acquire and maintain friendships.
 
Miriam Perkins said:
For instance, consider marriage. Inside a marriage a man and a woman may experience personal troubles, but when the divorce rate during the first 4 years of marriage is 250 out of every 1,000 attempts, this is an indication of a structural issue.

I'm not sure what point that is trying to make, but the obvious historical "issue" is that marriage changed from being a religious institution with rules that prevented divorcees from re-marrying (not to mention alleged side-effects like eternal damnation, hell-fire, etc) to a convenient legal arrangement for tax avoidance and debt financing.
 
Approval of authority figure is one thing and obedience to authority figure is another thing. The Milgram experiment on obedience to authority figures is disturbing albeit it was just experiment which is subject to further analysis and interpretations. Against our 'free will' the majority of us will inflict pain or even kill our fellow human beings if an authority figure will say it's okay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
 

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