Axiom of choice: Replacing a strong condition with a weaker condition

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter jose diez
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Axiom Choice
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of modifying conditions in set-theory theorems related to cardinality and the Axiom of Choice (ACh). Participants explore whether a weaker condition can replace a stronger one in the context of proving certain set-theoretic equivalences.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a theorem involving cardinality and conditions for set unions, suggesting that a weaker condition might still hold true.
  • Another participant questions the necessity of the Axiom of Choice for proving the proposed implications, suggesting that induction might suffice.
  • A clarification is made regarding the notation used for cardinality, with participants confirming that the squiggly equal signs denote equal cardinality.
  • One participant suggests that the conditions are formulated in finite terms, which may not extend to infinite families, thus questioning the applicability of ACh.
  • A further contribution discusses a reduction technique involving intersections and subsets, proposing a related result that could simplify the proof.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of the Axiom of Choice in proving the implications discussed. There is no consensus on whether the weaker condition can indeed replace the stronger one without invoking ACh.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the limitations of their arguments, particularly regarding the scope of the conditions and the potential independence from the Axiom of Choice. The discussion remains open to further exploration of these ideas.

jose diez
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
This set-theory theorem is very easy to prove:
(*) if A≈B & C≈D & A∩C=∅ & B∩D=∅ then A∪C≈B∪D
It seems intuitive that if one replaces the strong
A∩C=∅ & B∩D=∅
condition by the weaker
A∩C≈B∩D
the implication
(**) if A≈B & C≈D & A∩C≈B∪∩D then A∪C≈BD
still holds.
(**) does not seem to be much stronger than (*), nevertheless I have been able to prove (**) only using Ax of Choice (ACh). This suggested to me that (**) might be other equivalent to ACh, but I have not found it in the standard lists, nor I have been able to prove that (**) implies ACh.
Does anybody have any clue on this?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Sorry there was a typo in (**)

Corrected:
(**) if A≈B & C≈D & A∩C≈B∩D then A∪C≈B∪D
 
What do the squiggly equal signs stand for? Equal cardinality?
 
yes
 
jose diez said:
Does anybody have any clue on this?
I haven't worked through it, but isn't it possible to prove both (*) or (**) by induction without invoking AC? In this case, they would be independent of AC so cannot be equivalent.
 
jose diez said:
Corrected:
(**) if A≈B & C≈D & A∩C≈B∩D then A∪C≈B∪D
Shooting from hip, I'd say choice is not necessary for this to occur. To prove choice, we would have an arbitrary family of nonempty sets and we must find a choice function. The condition (**) is formulated in only finite terms. I don't see how it provides an angle to tackle with infinite families.

That said, I don't have a counterexample.
 
If you subtract ##A\cap C## from the left side of everything, and ##B\cap D## on the right side, then you have reduced to the case of no intersection as long as you can show the following result:

If ##B\subset A##, ##D\subset C##, ##D\approx B##, ##A\approx C##, then ##A-B \approx C- D##
 

Similar threads

Replies
26
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
7
Views
740
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
5K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K