Black Holes & Infinity(Singularities)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of black holes, specifically addressing the behavior of matter as it approaches and crosses the event horizon, the concept of singularities, and the implications of infinity in mathematical models related to black holes. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that matter does not reach the speed of light when crossing the event horizon, suggesting it continues towards the center at a finite velocity.
  • Others argue that the escape velocity of a black hole is defined as being equal to the speed of light at the event horizon, questioning the assertion that it is greater than c.
  • A participant states that nothing with mass can reach the speed of light, only approach it, and mentions effects like mass gain and length contraction.
  • One participant raises the question of relative speed, noting that an infalling object perceives itself as at rest while the black hole moves towards it, while a distant observer would see the object's speed approaching c as it falls in.
  • There is a discussion about the concept of escape velocity inside the event horizon, with a participant stating that no meaningful definition exists once inside, as all paths lead to the singularity.
  • Participants describe singularities as points where mathematical models break down, with one comparing it to classical physics scenarios that lead to infinite results under certain conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of matter near black holes, particularly regarding speed and escape velocity, indicating that multiple competing views remain. The discussion about singularities and infinity also reflects a lack of consensus on interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Some claims depend on specific definitions and assumptions about mass, speed, and the nature of singularities, which are not universally agreed upon. The discussion highlights the complexities and limitations of current models in describing black hole physics.

spacecadet11
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Hello. I would like to know. Does matter when heading towards a black hole then crossing the
event horizon threshold reach the speed of light? I am guessing no. It simply crosses the threshold
and at a finite velocity heads toward the center of the black hole.

The escape velocity of a black hole I believe is something greater than the speed of light. Has anyone actually calculated what that number is?

What is a Singularity? I only believe that matter simply reaches the center of a black hole.
Where in the world does infinity come from?

Thanks for any and all responses
Bye
SC
 
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spacecadet11 said:
Hello. I would like to know. Does matter when heading towards a black hole then crossing the
event horizon threshold reach the speed of light? I am guessing no. It simply crosses the threshold
and at a finite velocity heads toward the center of the black hole.

I'm not sure on this one, but I think you have it right.

The escape velocity of a black hole I believe is something greater than the speed of light. Has anyone actually calculated what that number is?
Why do you think it is greater than c? I've never heard that before. The event horizon is DEFINED as being the place where the escape velocity is c.

What is a Singularity? I only believe that matter simply reaches the center of a black hole.
Where in the world does infinity come from?

Singularity: a place where our math models give results that can't possibly be real, so we say that the model has broken down. We we abbreviate the aforgoing sentence by just saying "singularity"
 
No. Nothing with any mass can ever reach the speed of light; it can only approach it and suffer mass gain and shortening.
 
spacecadet11 said:
Hello. I would like to know. Does matter when heading towards a black hole then crossing the
event horizon threshold reach the speed of light? I am guessing no. It simply crosses the threshold
and at a finite velocity heads toward the center of the black hole.
Reaches the speed of light relative to what? As far as the falling object is concerned, it's at rest while the black hole is moving towards it (have you ever tried skydiving and experienced the Earth "rushing towards you"?). A distant observer will find that the speed of the falling object relative to the observer approaches ##c## as the object disappears into the black hole. If the infalling object emits a flash of light in any direction at any time during its fall, the flash of light will move away from the object at ##c##.

The escape velocity of a black hole I believe is something greater than the speed of light. Has anyone actually calculated what that number is?
There's no meaningful definition of escape velocity once inside the event horizon. No matter what direction you move, no matter how far and fast you move in that direction, your path will lead to the central singularity. Although...

What is a Singularity? I only believe that matter simply reaches the center of a black hole.
Where in the world does infinity come from?
The infinity is just an artifact of the math. For a more intuitive example, we could consider the classical formula for the force between a positive-charged and a negative-charged particle: ##F=kQ_1Q_2/r^2##. It works just fine as long as ##r##, the distance between the two particles, is not zero, but blows up to infinity if ##r## is zero. That's a singularity, but all it really tells us that you can't separate two charged particles by zero distance. A similar singularity appears if we set ##r=0## in the Schwarzschild equation that describes a black hole, and again it just tells us that that's not the right formula to use there.
 

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