Brian Greene: "The Past is as Real as the Present

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SUMMARY

Brian Greene's assertion that "the past is as real as the present" sparked a discussion on the nature of time and memory. Participants referenced Stephen Hawking's inquiry into why humans can remember the past but not the future, attributing this to the concept of entropy, which dictates that time flows in one direction. The conversation explored various theories, including the non-linear perception of time and the limitations of human consciousness in experiencing time. Ultimately, the discussion concluded that while the past is perceived as real, it exists only as a memory, and the present moment is the only time we can actively experience.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of entropy and its implications on time perception
  • Familiarity with Stephen Hawking's theories on time and memory
  • Basic knowledge of the philosophical implications of time in physics
  • Awareness of non-linear time theories and their interpretations
NEXT STEPS
  • Research "Entropy and the Arrow of Time" to understand its role in time perception
  • Explore "Stephen Hawking's theories on time" for deeper insights into memory and time
  • Study "Non-linear time theories" to grasp alternative perspectives on time flow
  • Investigate "Philosophical implications of time in physics" for a broader understanding of temporal concepts
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Philosophers, physicists, cognitive scientists, and anyone interested in the nature of time and memory will benefit from this discussion.

Ivan Seeking
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When pressed for a definition regarding "the past", and whether or not it "does" exist, Brian Greene

http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=11013

made this comment in an interview tonight.

~ I don't know if we can get there, but "the past is as real as the present"

Interesting, I thought.
 
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Ivan Seeking said:
When pressed for a definition regarding "the past", and whether or not it "does" exist, Brian Greene

http://www.randomhouse.com/knopf/catalog/results2.pperl?authorid=11013

made this comment in an interview tonight.

~ I don't know if we can get there, but "the past is as real as the present"

Interesting, I thought.


Hi Ivan Seeking, and hello all.

I've lurked here often, and found this site very interesting. I'm not a sceintist, though I can claim an enquiring mind.

Regarding your post, I heard a quote once, which I thought interesting ... "The present is the futures past"

What prompted me to register however, were the several quotes in your sig. I found them most refreshing, though unfortunately, often rebuked by scientists, even on these boards.

Cheers
JamesP
 
The past is in the future and the future is in the past
 
re

Steven Hawking once asked why can we remeber the past but not the future.
 
JP1746 said:
What prompted me to register however, were the several quotes in your sig. I found them most refreshing

What? People actually read those? :biggrin:
 
what said:
Steven Hawking once asked why can we remeber the past but not the future.

And why is this?
 
We do not rememebr the future as we only experience the flwo of time in one direction - it is the same reason why we do not see broken tea cups fixing themselves and leaping up back on to tables.
 
But why do we only experience the flow of time in one direction?

Is there something stopping it from going the other way around?
 
PIT2 said:
But why do we only experience the flow of time in one direction?

Is there something stopping it from going the other way around?
its the arrow of time. entropy always increases. so things always go from ordered to disordered. if a broken tea cup suddenly jumped up onto the table and mended itself, that'd be a more ordered state. therefore we never see it happen.
 
  • #10
Look up and see the night sky ...its the past.
 
  • #11
PIT2 said:
But why do we only experience the flow of time in one direction?

Is there something stopping it from going the other way around?

To elaborate on Gale's reply, the conclusion Hawking came to was that we will always experience time in the same direction that entropy increases because our brains become more ordered by creating disorder in the universe. He gives the example of a computer because we know how they work much more than brains. In order for a computer to "remember" something it has to write it to its harddrive, which takes energy. The amount of order lost in the universe from the energy needed for a computer to add something to memory is greater than the amount of order gained within the local system of the computer (to get energy for the computer we have to burn fossil fuels, etc)--therefore anytime you want to "order" something you must increase the total "disorder" of the universe as a whole by more. So for us to order our brains with new information, we have to use up energy and decrease the order of the universe as a whole, so we will always experience time in the same direction in which entropy increases.

Hawking goes on to say that if entropy decreased as time moved on, and somehow intelligent beings were here to witness it, although they would hypothetically "see" everything happening in reverse (broken cups jumping back up on tables), they would remember the future and not the past. So when the cup was broken on the floor they would remember when it was on the table, but after it assembled and jumped onto the table, they wouldn't remember it having been on the floor; thus they would still be "experiencing" time in the opposite direction from that in which entropy decreases (ie: they will experience time just like us, as entropy increases, they'll remember more).
 
  • #12
PIT2 said:
But why do we only experience the flow of time in one direction?

Is there something stopping it from going the other way around?

There is no direction for the flow of time. There is no past, nor is there a future. What you may think of as the past is actually a current event. Whatever you may dwell on as the future is actually a current event. Without a past or future - there can be no flow of time in a particular direction.

In our universe there are only ones, one at a time, where time is the nothing ones are composed of.
 
  • #13
divag30 said:
Look up and see the night sky ...its the past.

This is not true at all. It should be categorized as your current state.
 
  • #14
Time moves in every direction. It is non linear. Its more like a bowl of Jello (pig tallow). If you have your wits about you you can look ahead, to the side and behind you, in the bowl of time, simultaneously. But the enormous amount of information about the future and all other directions in the time-jello-bowl requires a substantial amount of processing. The brain tries not to confuse its host organism with the details of how to get to the fridge or to the bar.

Nor does the brain dilly dally the host with the infinite probabilities and actualities that are taking place, will take place or took place... eventuating their arrival at the pub.

Chain reactions don't just go from link to link, one at a time, all events are linked to one another. These links are also readily observable in what is today called linear time. But even more obvious are the simultaneous chain-reactions seen in quantum studies.
 
  • #15
You people are crack heads. Atoms move around, particles decay. Thats what creates the passage of time. Your brain only processes the information it receives through the senses. It can't "see" ahead into the future.
 
  • #16
Is it true that if you make an atom go faster than the speed of light, you will really be going back in time?
 
  • #17
You people are crack heads. Atoms move around, particles decay. Thats what creates the passage of time. Your brain only processes the information it receives through the senses. It can't "see" ahead into the future.

That pretty much summarises it with the exception of "totallyclueless" wanting to know about "you will really be going back in time?" opposed to "ahead in the future". Still you're right, it's simply hopeless since we're unable to see, whether if it's in the past or future.

All in all this topic intersperses a lot of time knowledge and an elaborate theory understanding about manipulative atoms fitting a required time space to permit an individual to "travel back and forwards in time. This is really inexorable, whatever you guys do, don't mention John Titor, a complete and total waste of time.
 
  • #18
I don't think Brian Green and John Titor go together very well. :rolleyes:
 
  • #19
The past is more real than the present. For beings who observe anyway. Every observable moment you live, your every thought is always in the past. We can only exist in the present and predict the possibilities of the future. Time to me is rather a way we define one moment from another without knowing the exact order of every particle in the universe.
 
  • #20
MaxS said:
You people are crack heads. Atoms move around, particles decay. Thats what creates the passage of time. Your brain only processes the information it receives through the senses. It can't "see" ahead into the future.
You should read more. It's a lot more complex than you think.

For example:
1] "Particles moving around" has no intrinsic direction through time.
2] Particles mazy decay, but they also fuse.
Both of your examples are not dependent on a direction of time.

In fact, it is precious hard (though not impossible) to find a good example of a behaviour that is dependent on a single direction of time.

I highly recommend .
 
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  • #21
I highly recommend that you take an elementary physics course.

Particles don't move in any "direction of time". They simply move, that movement is what your brain sees and understands to be a change from their previous state (fires burn out, people get old...)

This backwards forwards time movement is utter nonsense.
 
  • #22
MaxS said:
You people are crack heads. Atoms move around, particles decay. Thats what creates the passage of time. Your brain only processes the information it receives through the senses. It can't "see" ahead into the future.

Speak for yourself. Got any good crack?
 
  • #23
Here's a colorful speculation.

If the consciousness exists partly in a higher dimension then it might explain why we perceive the past the way we do.

A line is 1 dimensional. When it is bent it is still a 1 dimensional line, but it exists partly in 2 dimensions because it needs two variables to explain its shape. It is like our curved space-time. Our senses interpret matter. Matter exists in 3 dimensional space. Our senses only interpret objects that are at least partially 3 dimensional.

Assuming time is not an object, then how can we perceive it? If our consciousness is partially in the 3rd dimension then it must have some mass. (Anyone seen 21 grams?) If it is completely in the 4th dimension then how can it interact with our bodies? If it is inbetween, such as an electron or photon might be inbetween dimensions, then it would be like the bent line. It would travel on one line in a 4 dimensional plane. Thus we perceive time moment by moment.

We don't directly perceive the past or the future. We have memory of the moments we experienced in the past. The future we have not yet experienced and have no memory of. It appears to us as if it has not yet happened.

Why don't we experience all points on our time line simultaneously? An eye is a 3 dimensional object, but it records 2 dimensional (at least partially) images of the objects it sees. There are two points I could make.
1. A 2 dimensional plane cannot express 3 dimensions accurately. It can see one side or the other. It could also be bent, but then it's perception would be warped like a funhouse mirror. The same might be said for a 3 dimensional perspective of a 4th dimension.
2. We cannot see an object hidden behind another object on a 2 dimensional plane. Again, same for the 4th dimension viewed from a 3 dimensional plane.

Because we exist as matter in 3 dimensions we are limited to our perception of time. We can only experience one direction, the future, and experience each moment individually. The past is a memory of what we have experienced. It is a part of the same plane as the present and the future. If the consciousness were to be removed from the matter, then it wouldn't be limited by these restrictions. Or a consciousness could be attached to the matter, but be warped and it would experience a funhouse version of time.

edit- Any accurate dimensional comparison would need to be done on a logarithmic scale.
 
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  • #24
Here's what I say to this...

The past is not real; It was real.
 
  • #25
Doesnt relativity suggest that holding a specific point in spacetime (whether it be in the past; right 'now'; or in the future; way, way, way far away; or really, really close) to be more 'real' then the other is a violation of the no preferred reference frame or somesuch?

Or, if that didnt make any sense, which I don't think it did, that according to relativity all points in spacetime are on equal footing, or, equally 'real', if you like.

The present isn't any more or less 'real' then the past or future, all three being a 'persistent illusion' any way.
 
  • #26
I think everyone here should be a little more careful with their thoughts.

To begin with, the concept of time has been around long before the invention of clocks and the concept itself never required the existence of accurate clocks. The most fundamental characteristic of time is that it divides our universe (the reality within which all experiments conceivable are performed) into two distinctly different realms: the past and the future! It is an experimental fact supported by observations extending back to before written history that nothing can be done to change the past and that we do not know exactly what the future will turn out to be. The power and dependability of this single idea (that the past and the future are fundamentally different realms) is the central reason for the very existence of the concept of time. To forget this fact is to overlook a very important phenomena fundamental to our very existence.

In the beginning, the concept of time was really a subtle reference to what was known. To refer to a specific moment in the past (usually by naming a significant event, someone's birth, a sunrise or perhaps a war) was to provide a reference to the division between past and future from the perspective of experiencing that event. Time was essentially delineated by a succession of such events. Even prior to the invention of writing, I am sure it was evident to our ancestors that the motion of the sun (among other repetitive events) provided a convenient commonly understood event as a easy reference event. It is my position that this is the real source of the idea behind clocks, devices which could track and label the present. That is, to provide specific references to the collection of interesting boundaries between associated states of past and the future (personal experience itself).

Until Newton came along, I think the concept of time was in good alignment with the needs of mankind; however, I think Newton's great success was the source of a perspective which was fundamentally erroneous. In essence, Newton showed that the future mechanical motion of many objects could be predicted from the past motion via some very simple mathematical relations, time (as a numerical parameter) became a very important scientific concept. This, in itself, was not at all in violation of the concept of time which I have here presented.

So long as clocks are seen as mechanical devices designed to provide a convenient laboratory collection of reproducible repetitive events, then there is no real conflict with the earlier concept concept of time, the division between past and future from the perspective of the events being examined in the laboratory.

Newton made an error when he presumed that these laboratory clocks provided a valid universal collection of well understood events: i.e. that everybody's clock could be set to agree and thus provide a universal division between between past and future. The power of Newton's achievements, the ability of his ideas to analytically predict the behavior of many events, insured the development of clocks of ever finer precision. In fact, this precision became so important that the scientific society actually moved to the position that "clocks define time"; totally losing sight of the fact that the central issue of time was the division of the past (that which cannot be changed) from the future (that which science is trying to predict).

The scientific community had become so sure that the future was a direct calculate-able consequence of the past (the mechanical machine paradigm) that they forgot the underlying purpose of the concept: i.e., to separate reality into those two distinctly different realms, the past and the future. They did not feel that these realms were different in any interesting way and thus did not worry about the universal fact that the past is what we cannot change and the future is what we do not know. Absolutely no scientific interest was dedicated to that issue at all.

When Einstein realized Newton's error, (that everybody's clock could not be set to agree) he also realized that it was that fact which had created the problems displayed by the success of Maxwell's equation. His relativity was a brilliant solution; however, his classical education had so tied to the idea that the universe was mechanical machine where the future was a calculate-able consequence of the past that he continued to regard the past and the future as entirely equivalent ("God does not play dice"). He continued to conceive of time as a fundamental parameter of that boundary between past and future even when he himself proved that it was not (the twin paradox is actually a simple statement that they won't agree with each other's personal time parameter).

Even today, the simple statement that "clocks to not measure time" is sufficient to convince anyone in the physics community that one is a complete crackpot (that's yours truly if anyone is interested :biggrin: ). No one will even consider the consequences of that suggestion and they will go to any lengths conceivable to avoid even thinking about the issue. The mechanism they use is misdirection of attention! Only magicians understand how easily people can be misled. Misdirection of attention is the very soul of magic; with it magicians can hide the truth for decades even when we know they are trying to fool us (how much worse is it when we trust them implicitly). In science, attention is focused on new ideas, not on the old concepts which are presumed to be clear and consistent; how else could Newton's error have stood for three hundred years? The current error in perspective will probably stand for another thousand years in spite of the fact that this very simple change resolves the problems between general relativity and quantum mechanics.

Someday, they will invent an atomic clock which displays the correct time by definition (see the current definition of time) which is small enough and cheap enough that most everyone can wear one on their wrist. Maybe then, when none of those clocks agree, it might dawn on someone with scientific authority that those clocks do not agree on the measure time (the division between past and future). I really wish I could get someone to discuss the issue with me (preferably someone who understands mathematics).

Have fun -- Dick
 
  • #27
nwall

Nwall: The quote from Hawking is interesting. Energy is required for memory and the flow of energy results in increasing entropy. I'd agree with everything you/Hawking said, but...

Doesn't this simply move the question about the flow of time over to the question, "Why does entropy increase in the forward direction of time?" The argument by Hawking would seem to me, to be based on the premise that entropy increases with time, so he's using these two almost interchangably. If we lived in a world where entropy decreased over time, would time reverse? It might, it might not, so I don't think the argument is valid. One has to find a reason why entropy increases over time. Time is every bit as fundamental as increasing entropy, maybe more so since:
- entropy would seem to arise from the configuration of matter in the universe
whereas
- time seems to be a dimension OF the universe.

PS: you inspired me to create a separate thread around the topic of computation and entropy here: Computation and Entropy
 
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  • #28
DrDick

Someday, they will invent an atomic clock which displays the correct time by definition (see the current definition of time) which is small enough and cheap enough that most everyone can wear one on their wrist. Maybe then, when none of those clocks agree, it might dawn on someone with scientific authority that those clocks do not agree on the measure time (the division between past and future).
If we could create the hypothetical 'perfect watch', then of course the watches wouldn't necessarilly agree. Time isn't classical as you've pointed out - as the pre-Einstein years might have one believe. Time is warped just as linear dimensions are warped. If we assume time is a dimension, on par with linear dimensions, we find all dimensions are a bit 'warped'. Linear distances between galaxies are increasing because there is a component of space itself that is expanding. This is perfectly analogous to time dilation which is dependent on velocity and acceleration. It seems that time is merely a dimension of this universe on par with the three linear dimensions and is affected equally by some phenomenon which results in it's changing with respect to other dimensions.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that clocks can (in principal) be made to measure this dimension of time, just as other tools can be used to measure distances. And I believe that was the point of relativity. Do you believe that such a measuring device is not, in principal, something that can be devised? Obviously it will only measure the time through which it passes, not some universal time, but I see no real problem with that because none of the dimensions are fixed in the classical sense.
 
  • #29
Q_Goest said:
Time isn't classical as you've pointed out - as the pre-Einstein years might have one believe.
No, I haven't pointed out that time isn't a classical concept; that question clearly depends on what one means by the term "classical". I feel that the classical concept of time was that it was a reference to the personal division between the past and the future experienced by everyone. It was Newton who suggested (through his fabulous success) that it could be seen as a mere parameter: i.e., that there was no difference between the past and the future. That is the erroneous presumption conjured up following Newton's work which is still held as valid to this very day.
Q_Goest said:
Time is warped just as linear dimensions are warped.
This presumes time is a dimension just like the common geometric dimensions.
Q_Goest said:
If we assume time is a dimension, on par with linear dimensions, we find all dimensions are a bit 'warped'.
As you say, "if we assume"; my point is why don't we try assuming something else.
Q_Goest said:
Linear distances between galaxies are increasing because there is a component of space itself that is expanding. This is perfectly analogous to time dilation which is dependent on velocity and acceleration. It seems that time is merely a dimension of this universe on par with the three linear dimensions and is affected equally by some phenomenon which results in it's changing with respect to other dimensions.
This comment is pure misdirection of attention. I have a Ph.D. in Theoretical Physics from a reputable university. I am very familiar with Einstein's relativity and the mechanics of calculating fundamental consequences of that theory. I have no argument whatsoever with those results and likewise, those results have little to do with the realizations I am trying to communicate. You should be aware of the fact that there are problems combining quantum mechanics with general relativity. Dirac's equation is a relativistic generalization of quantum theory which encompasses the entirety of special relativity but does not resolve the subtle problems inherent in trying to encompass general relativity. These problems are real and no satisfactory solution exists in the physics community; though I am sure you could find physics devotees who would argue otherwise. The validity of modern physics as understood has become a religious position, not a scientific position.
Q_Goest said:
So I guess what I'm trying to say is that clocks can (in principal) be made to measure this dimension of time, just as other tools can be used to measure distances. And I believe that was the point of relativity. Do you believe that such a measuring device is not, in principal, something that can be devised? Obviously it will only measure the time through which it passes, not some universal time, but I see no real problem with that because none of the dimensions are fixed in the classical sense.
This is little more than additional misdirection of attention. Attention is being directed to the successes of Einstein's theory, not to the failures.

I hate to say it, but when it comes to general relativity, Einstein convinced the physics community that the problem was too difficult for them to solve. Once his solution was accepted, actual work towards alternate possibilities ceased. The entire physics community concentrates all their attention on the successes and none on alternate possibilities. The Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is deeply rooted in Newton's vision of the universe as a great mechanical system which is describable in terms of things which propagate into the future according to a specific mathematical operator. The only problem with that interpretation was and is with the "collapse of the wave function". They have moved to the position that the "wave function" is a real physical entity (a piece of that machine which propagates into the future in a predictable fashion).

What they have completely laid aside is the idea that the past is different from the future: the past cannot be changed and the future cannot be known. That is the essence of the mechanist view introduced by the success of Newton's work. Today, the demand that the perspective be maintained has led to the idea of "entanglement". The problem with that perspective is that quantum mechanics itself denies any mechanism capable of yielding that "entanglement". The error is clearly the requirement of a "mechanism": there is a fundamental flaw in their perspective. (Remember, I am a crackpot! :smile: )

Regarding my status as a crackpot, back when I was a graduate student, I was quite astonished (being a graduate student of "theoretical physics") that the central issue of "theoretical physics" was the problem of finding ways to calculate the consequences of current theory, not questioning that theory. Please notice that Richard Feynman's great contribution to theoretical physics was his introduction of "Feynman diagrams", a mechanism for keeping track of terms in a perturbation expansion. Think about that for a moment. Who is doing "theoretical physics"?

But back to my complaint on the issue of "time" and "what clocks measure". My position is very simple: time is a concept generated by the mind of man. Time is not a "measurable variable"; I do not say that particular instantiates of time are not representable via the readings on a particular clock, but rather that this interpretation is not universal. Universally speaking, time is not a measurable entity!

If one makes a careful analysis of relativistic relationships and clocks, one should (if they have any brains at all) notice a very unusual fact. In Einstein's theory of relativity, there is a measure commonly referred to as the "invariant interval". Clocks invariably read exactly this "invariant interval". It makes no difference whether one is talking about special relativity or general relativity, the reading on a given clock is universally equal to exactly the "invariant interval" along the space time path of that clock. One could conclude that the clock is measuring something very fundamental! But it is certainly not time! Certainly not the time as proposed by Einstein's theory.

If any of that makes sense to you and you want to talk about it I will be following the responses to this post.

Have fun -- Dick
 
  • #30
Please Doctor Dick ... Cut down on the I and me and my in your post. I can't take it anymore, because I and only I know that I can't take it anymore. I also think that I can solve your problem, because it is me that knows that I can fix this problem. I hope you can see the problem I am having, because I'm making it perfectly clear how bothersome it is for me. As I stopped reading your post months ago, I still have to see that I have to see that you post, and I want that to go away so I can live in peace. I hope you understand what I'm trying to get across. I couldn't make it anymore clear than what is posted here by me and only me. Surely a smart man as yourself can understand how I feel about how I have to put up wth this nonsense that I have shown by me and only me, as to how I am going nuts seeing that you still post in such a way that I have to think that I have to put up with what I term the I syndrome. Please try Doctor Dick
Please please please.

Me myself and I are begging you.
 
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