Can a Boeing 777 survive diving into the ocean like a bird?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theoretical possibility of a Boeing 777 surviving a dive into the ocean without breaking apart, akin to how a bird dives. Participants explore the mechanics of such a scenario, considering factors like angle, speed, and the structural integrity of the aircraft upon impact with water.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if a Boeing 777 could dive into the ocean at the right angle and speed without breaking apart, noting the importance of wing position during the dive.
  • Another participant asserts that even at stall speed, the impact with water would be harsh, likely resulting in structural failure, particularly of the wings.
  • Some participants reference successful water landings of large planes, suggesting that the "perfect angle" for a safe landing is not the same as the angle required for a dive without damage.
  • A participant emphasizes that the wings of a Boeing 777 would produce lift in water, which would lead to them being ripped off upon impact.
  • There are comparisons made to birds, particularly pelicans, which can dive without sustaining damage due to their ability to fold their wings and enter the water at a specific angle.
  • Some participants express agreement with the idea that there is no angle at which a Boeing 777 could enter the water without breaking apart, reiterating the differences between bird and aircraft dynamics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that a Boeing 777 cannot survive a dive into the ocean without breaking apart, though there are nuances in the discussion regarding the mechanics of water impact and comparisons to bird behavior. Multiple competing views exist regarding the specifics of the angles and conditions necessary for a safe entry.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the assumption of a perfectly calm sea and the differences in dynamics between birds and large aircraft, which may affect the discussion's conclusions.

wahoo
Hi guys, firstly, I am NOT a physicist and I apologize for invading your forum, but I am curious about something:

Is it theoretically possible for a Boeing 777 to hit the ocean at the perfect angle and speed so that it dives right through the water, like a diving sea bird, without breaking apart? I realize that birds tuck their wings when they dive and the wings separating are the sticking point for me right now.

Hopefully there are some Hyper Physicists or Aviation Engineers hanging around.

Thanks so much for your time.

p.s. I'm assuming a perfectly calm sea
 
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Doesn't really take much of an engineer to tell you that the answer to that is a definite no. Hitting water at even the stall speed of a 777 wouldn't be a lot less gentle than hitting the ground and even if the front went in, the wings would rip off
 
I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I think phinds is right.

There have been instances of large planes making water landings "successfully", though:

plane_crash_redux_01.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549

This might suggest the "perfect angle" is close to zero.
 
Agree with both.

[edit: why does my post have a title?]
 
lisab said:
I'm not an aerospace engineer, but I think phinds is right.

There have been instances of large planes making water landings "successfully", though: This might suggest the "perfect angle" is close to zero.

Yes, and I think you realize it fully, but just want to be clear that that does NOT define a "perfect angle" in response to his question, which has the plane becoming a submarine, but rather answers the question "what's the best angle to hit the water and FLOAT and not break up?".

The answer to his question as asked is, there is no such angle.
 
Thanks a lot guys. I figured that may be the case, but wanted educated opinions.
 
russ_watters said:
[edit: why does my post have a title?]

That's because you're lucky, post #4. :biggrin:
 
And why, you might ask, does post #4 have a title? Because Evo couldn't always remember the thread title when she was halfway down the thread, so Greg agreed to add the title back to the 4th post so I wouldn't have to scroll all the way back to the top to find it.
 
Evo said:
And why, you might ask, does post #4 have a title? Because Evo couldn't always remember the thread title when she was halfway down the thread, so Greg agreed to add the title back to the 4th post so I wouldn't have to scroll all the way back to the top to find it.
Wait, really?
 
  • #10
russ_watters said:
Wait, really?
Yes. Ask and ye shall receive. When I'm moderating a thread in GD, often by the time I get to the thread bottom I'm wondering What the Heck was this thread supposed to be about? Often you can't tell from the posts, and we didn't have the wormhole.
 
  • #11
Evo said:
And why, you might ask, does post #4 have a title? Because Evo couldn't always remember the thread title when she was halfway down the thread, so Greg agreed to add the title back to the 4th post so I wouldn't have to scroll all the way back to the top to find it.

Actually that helps me too. At my age I do occasionally forget the title of a thread.:redface: It is usually a bit further down than post four.:devil:

I was just thinking that this might discourage people who are about to go off topic. Oops that was off topic.
 
  • #12
wahoo said:
Hi guys, firstly, I am NOT a physicist and I apologize for invading your forum, but I am curious about something:

Is it theoretically possible for a Boeing 777 to hit the ocean at the perfect angle and speed so that it dives right through the water, like a diving sea bird, without breaking apart? I realize that birds tuck their wings when they dive and the wings separating are the sticking point for me right now.

Hopefully there are some Hyper Physicists or Aviation Engineers hanging around.

Thanks so much for your time.

p.s. I'm assuming a perfectly calm sea

Can't resist this one,
As others have said NO!
The perfect angle for the fuselage is 90 degrees to the water surface, (it might be OK) but the wings now produce lift in a hydraulic (non compressible) environment which would rip them from the body (instantly).
 
  • #13
RonL said:
Can't resist this one,
As others have said NO!
The perfect angle for the fuselage is 90 degrees to the water surface, (it might be OK) but the wings now produce lift in a hydraulic (non compressible) environment which would rip them from the body (instantly).

Ever watch pelicans dive for fish?

They fold their wings in and way back from flying position, and their long long beak breaks the water.

(photo courtesy of http://jerryjourdan.blogspot.com/2009/11/sanibel-island-fl-21-nov-2009.html)

BrownPelican8597b.jpg


and a pelican's stall speed is maybe a tenth of a jetliner's .
 
  • #14
jim hardy said:
Ever watch pelicans dive for fish?

They fold their wings in and way back from flying position, and their long long beak breaks the water.

(photo courtesy of http://jerryjourdan.blogspot.com/2009/11/sanibel-island-fl-21-nov-2009.html)

BrownPelican8597b.jpg


and a pelican's stall speed is maybe a tenth of a jetliner's .

Yes, with a very short history of Gulf shrimping that is a very common sight, also I have watched a hawk take the same path from about 500' into a field of grass and weeds, then fly out with a snake in his claws. I would love to see how he checked his descent at those last few feet ??

What are you indicating in relation to the jet plane ?
 
  • #15
What are you indicating in relation to the jet plane ?

Same things you said in #12:

Pelican enters with his fuselage perpendicular

but is able to streamline his wings so they aren't snapped off.
 
  • #16
jim hardy said:
Same things you said in #12:

Pelican enters with his fuselage perpendicular

but is able to streamline his wings so they aren't snapped off.

Thanks Jim,
Just wanted to make sure I didn't miss the intended point, :smile:
 

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