Can I Succeed in Calculus Without Prior Advanced Math Courses?

[Nothing000]

I agree, an education like that is a complete waiste of tax payers (or his parents) money. I went to an alternative school for a few years, and it was just like that. There was couches in every room, and we didn't do any work. All we did was play board games and pool (yes there was a pool table there). And everyone thought that this was so cool at the time (including me), but once high school was over with I sure wished that I had gotten a real education. Because I had to go to a community college to learn all the basic algebra. And now I am in my early twenties and am just in my first year at a university. I really should be graduating in about a year, that is if I would have just gone to a good old fashion high school where they actually make the kids work. And these kids in these schools of course want to be there, because they are too young to really realize the importance of education. It really is the parents fault for allowing their kids to go to such lousy "schools".

 

[moose]

Yes, I understood it. Of course. The point of math is being able to understand WHY you do it, not how. Why do you people always doubt me, on this forum? People here degrade me alot, doubt me, say I'm not smart for my age, etc. I am getting tired of it.
For example, I understood why you have to balance an equation. So both sides are equal, or are 0. I haven't done math in along time now (especially algebra) so I have forgotten alot. But yeah, I did understand it.
NO, i have trouble with reading comprehension, that is why. And I am a slow worker. In fact, I got straight A's, and checked my homework at least twice. I was meticious.

I never degraded you and never even implied it.

I was saying what I would say to ANYONE.

For example, I understood why you have to balance an equation. So both sides are equal, or are 0.

That's not what I meant by understanding math...

 

[moose]

To the other people: I understand. I have 'calculus for dummies' and even that is difficult (It is technically not 'pure', either). I do need a solid background in trig and algebra. I don't understand 'theta' in trig, either. It's confusing.

... Ok, the post before this you just said something which contradicts what you said here...

Anyway, you can substitute x for theta... it's just a variable...

 

[Zarathustra1]

A bit off topic but what is actually in "college algebra" and "pre-calculus" ?

Is college algebra the same as our A-level, but without the differentiation and integration? (Things like partial fractions, vector algebra, complex numbers, all trig identities, basic matrices, etc), and is Pre-calculus a course like we would call mathematical analysis (turning vague arguments into rigorous mathematical proofs).Or am I well off?

Well, my uni actually has two sets of "college algebra" courses: Beginning College Algebra I and II, and College Algebra I and II. There is also an "intermediate algebra" course which is the lowest level math course offered here, which I think is actually at the high school level (it might even be necessary for the OP to take such a class, depending on his algebra background).

Beginning College Algebra, in my uni, assumes some algebra skills but is still fairly basic. Then, College Algebra and Precalculus are basically the same level of math, both having a large amount of algebra content. The difference is that College Algebra has no trig at all and, I believe, a stronger emphasis on linear systems and matricies, whereas the Precalculus course touches up on those subjects much less but has strong trig content, basic vector operations, polar coordinates, and is basically designed to give you everything you need to take calculus. I would also imagine that precalculus is faster-paced. Generally, I think if you plan on taking calculus, you can probably ingore the College Algebra courses and take precalc instead, which is what I did.

It probably varies a little from college to college, but that's how they work here.

 

[G01]

QT, you have a treck ahead of you. Before you even begin to study physics and calc you need to give yourself a understanding of algebra, and this means much more than "solving for x" I believe anyone can do anything as long as they know where to start. Your starting point would be to replace the math you missed before taking calc. or physics.

Another thing you should consider, do you like math or are you just willing to put up with it to study physics. You must like it because it will be an integral part of your physics education even after your done with calc. (Once you take calc 2 you'll see the pun in the last sentence )

 

[moose]

A bit off topic but what is actually in "college algebra" and "pre-calculus" ?

College algebra doesn't cover much, it covers things from quadratic things to logarithms and arithmetic/geometric series.

Pre-calculus covers the former along with basic trigonometry and some schools include limits in the curriculum.

 

[QuantumTheory]

I never took part in this thread for this very reason. He is hopeless, especially on his own.
So, listen to the wise mathwonk.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I see what you are saying is blunt constructive critism, but I always take things one of the 2 ways:
1) Too seriously
2) Think someone is insulting me, when they are giving me advice.

This can be bad for 2 reasons:
1) People think I'm 'stupid' because people repeat advice and I 'don't follow it.
2) People think I'm stupid because I am 'hopeless', i.e, they think I don't listen to them

Honestly, I'm pretty offended by you saying I'm 'hopeless'. Perhaps your point was I just 'don't get' what you're saying. Well this isn't the case.
No one here has said that I'm smart, probably because other people here are smarter than me, and I'm dumb in comparison. But these people have degrees, and many hours of education.

And I'm 'ready for a remedial high school at best'. So, you're saying I belong to a stupid school?

Heh, did you see what I said? I got nearly straight A's in a REGULAR high school. Yes, the one's that make you do homework, and are not on computers. I had a 3.8 at best, and never got below a 3.2 or 3.0. I even won an award for best improved grades. (My grades dropped in middle school)

I was eligible for honors in math. Why didn't I get in? 3 reasons, actually.
1) My teacher wouldn't recommend me because I'm a slow learner. This means, even though I Understand the underlying concepts, it takes me longer than other students. Honors is fast pace, so I couldn't handle it.
2) I had to be in at least geometry. The highest I was in a regular school was Algebra.
Ok, 2 reasons. Forgot the third.

In fact, I did MUCH better in a regular high school than in a charter one! I got several D's in the charter school, even though I actually had an A. Why? Because I was absent so much. Absents count towards a lot in charter schools.

In fact, when I was in a charter school I WISHED I was at a regular school. Why? Sure, I didn't want the homework, but it would've prepared me for college.Yes, I REALIZED THIS. I'm not an idiot, ok? Actually, most high school students don't see this. And I did. So give me kudos for this, instead of calling me 'hopeless', ok?? The reason was I wanted to learn more math, more science, for colelge so I could test better. Also, since I was in a charter school, when I finished my math, I couldn't take anymore. So I forgot alot.

What was my grade at the charter school? a 2.9 . Yes, that's right, a 2.9 at one point. They barely managed to get it to a 3.0 because I tutored in math and geometry. Why was it so low? Again, absecence.

I knew the importance of school, and I liked to learn, but I really did hate it. I hated going for 6 hours, and learning subjects I didn't like. (For example, I like history, bu tonly certain parts, like the industrail revolution i was good at). So many of you people lov eit, heh, especially women, but I had no friends. In fact, I was one of the most picked on for being eccentric. I asked people so I could look at their calculus books, and had them explain it too me.

However, I have to agre with the person above, I do wish, now, and even then, that I had gone to and stayed in a normal school.

 

[badtwistoffate]

At my high school I had a bad case of "senioritis" and failed to do any work in my math classes (pre-calc) thinking that I would be fine... I was wrong, after getting to my university I took pre-calc again and did pretty badly and got a D-, though a lot of my classmates in the same major (meteorology) did too, anyway the whole time I started having a friendship with the prof. and thanks to him took the class over again and he even told me I prolly should have took a algebra course instead of the pre-calc. Anyway the next semester I took pre calc and got a A- and calc followed and got a A- in that too and just got a B in calc 2 and next semester taking multivarible Calc.
Basically anything can be done if you work hard and do what you have to do it (even swallowing your pride and saying your not where you should be and going down a level in a math class.(all the kids that went ahead and didnt stayed behind actully got C's or D's in calc and had to repeat or went to calc 2 and had to repeat that class).

 

[Corneo]

If you someone how manage to be admitted to a university. I say somehow because admission officials will look at your high school courses and laugh. Be prepare to be in the shock of your life. Take the algebra I/II and trig classes before you start calculus. Without a firm foundation in those courses, it is unlikely you can do well in science.

Rant: I use to think it is a waste of time for univerisites to offer courses like algebra I/II, geometry, and trig. Resources could be spend else where in teaching other higher courses. However I talked to a math professor at my school, and he tells me that although some students have taken these courses in their high school, they still come in unprepared.

 

[JasonRox]

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I see what you are saying is blunt constructive critism, but I always take things one of the 2 ways:
1) Too seriously
2) Think someone is insulting me, when they are giving me advice.
This can be bad for 2 reasons:
1) People think I'm 'stupid' because people repeat advice and I 'don't follow it.
2) People think I'm stupid because I am 'hopeless', i.e, they think I don't listen to them
Honestly, I'm pretty offended by you saying I'm 'hopeless'. Perhaps your point was I just 'don't get' what you're saying. Well this isn't the case.
No one here has said that I'm smart, probably because other people here are smarter than me, and I'm dumb in comparison. But these people have degrees, and many hours of education.
And I'm 'ready for a remedial high school at best'. So, you're saying I belong to a stupid school?
Heh, did you see what I said? I got nearly straight A's in a REGULAR high school. Yes, the one's that make you do homework, and are not on computers. I had a 3.8 at best, and never got below a 3.2 or 3.0. I even won an award for best improved grades. (My grades dropped in middle school)
I was eligible for honors in math. Why didn't I get in? 3 reasons, actually.
1) My teacher wouldn't recommend me because I'm a slow learner. This means, even though I Understand the underlying concepts, it takes me longer than other students. Honors is fast pace, so I couldn't handle it.
2) I had to be in at least geometry. The highest I was in a regular school was Algebra.
Ok, 2 reasons. Forgot the third.
In fact, I did MUCH better in a regular high school than in a charter one! I got several D's in the charter school, even though I actually had an A. Why? Because I was absent so much. Absents count towards a lot in charter schools.
In fact, when I was in a charter school I WISHED I was at a regular school. Why? Sure, I didn't want the homework, but it would've prepared me for college.Yes, I REALIZED THIS. I'm not an idiot, ok? Actually, most high school students don't see this. And I did. So give me kudos for this, instead of calling me 'hopeless', ok?? The reason was I wanted to learn more math, more science, for colelge so I could test better. Also, since I was in a charter school, when I finished my math, I couldn't take anymore. So I forgot alot.
What was my grade at the charter school? a 2.9 . Yes, that's right, a 2.9 at one point. They barely managed to get it to a 3.0 because I tutored in math and geometry. Why was it so low? Again, absecence.
I knew the importance of school, and I liked to learn, but I really did hate it. I hated going for 6 hours, and learning subjects I didn't like. (For example, I like history, bu tonly certain parts, like the industrail revolution i was good at). So many of you people lov eit, heh, especially women, but I had no friends. In fact, I was one of the most picked on for being eccentric. I asked people so I could look at their calculus books, and had them explain it too me.
However, I have to agre with the person above, I do wish, now, and even then, that I had gone to and stayed in a normal school.

Did you not read some of the posts that I have made in other threads?

I had a similar background as you.

I did complete **** in high school. I even failed mathematics. I had as far as I know, I had no ****ing talents what so ****ing ever.

I went to business school, and did my best. I succeeded to be amongst the best students in the program, and I hung out with the best students. How did this happen? I WORKED! I later wanted to go to university for business, but I needed High School Calculus, which I did not have because I didn't do **** in high school, just like you. All I did, instead of whining about it, was sit down and teach myself Calculus. I didn't even have a passion for it or anything. I just did it because I needed too. I later wrote an exam, and I passed (the course was self-taught, but you get the credit if you pass the exam).

During the time that I taught myself Calculus, I learned to love Calculus. Things like finding the slope at a point, or finding the maximum of a curve fascinated me. I didn't even know trigonometry or nothing, before I started.

Because of my new passion for mathematics, I transferred to university for mathematics. I still didn't even know what a matrix was or what a determinant is. Sadly enough, teaching myself Calculus actually made me more prepared than anyone else! I didn't skip sections or anything. I learned a lot of trigonometry, and I learned some concepts of integrals, which most or all students did not encounter yet.

Where am I now? More knowledgeable than most people I even talk too, in 2nd year. I have a A+ average this past term. It's ironic because I used to fail math or simply just pass. I did this while working full-time too, it ain't easy. I continue to teach myself mathematics as I no longer trust the school system. My biggest challenge to date is finding the right books to learn from, getting good direction, and finding the time. Yet, like I said in my other posts in other threads, even if it is only 5-10 pages of work a week, it is progress, however slow.

I did the work. I sat down and did the work. Did you sit down and do the work yet?

Note: I failed mathematics in high school, and graduated with a **** ass average, but never once did I think I was stupid because I did poorly or others never said I was smart. I believed in myself, that's all you need. It doesn't matter what other people say or do, all that matters is that you believe in yourself.

Note: Why do I think you're hopeless? You don't take our advice, and you haven't even started learning basic algebra yet. Get to work.

Note: During college, I went to the city library and got a basic algebra book. It was like freshmen high school level. I think you should do the same. NO, I did not feel ashamed. You have to do, what you have to do.

Note: It's like hockey. If someone knocks you down, don't quit, just get right back up and try again.

 

[Pseudo Statistic]

Ok, let me explain. When I was in middle school, we did geometry. I didn't do good because it was't at my levle (I iddn't evne know how to do 'essenial' everyday math)
But then when I got into high school I took essenials. I didn't do good at first, but I decided I could do anything I put my mind to. So I told myself, "I will get an A, I can do this" and eventually, I did. Not only that, I was one of the top students in all the 6 periods!
Afte rthat, I told Algebra IA. The next year, I took algebra IB. Unfortunately, I never got as far as factoring. I had an average GPA of about 3.2-3.4, for awhile my GPA was 3.8. Never went below 3.0. However, my comprehension is horrible, and I had a very difficult time doing homework. It took me much longer than the other students.
At this point, I went to a charter school so I didn't have to do homework. We even had a halo 2 video game class! Heh. However, they did tell me it was accreddited, I.E the diploma is the same as a regular school Amazing, isn't it? Almost sounds too good to be true..
We moved, and then I went to another charter school. E-instute, both were on computers. E-instiute was 4 hours a day, no homework .. However, I did have homework twice. I had to write a 21 page report on numismatics (Yikes) and a 12 page essay on numismatic art.
Now I have my diploma. I have 2 questions:
1) Even though my school is 'accreditted' and it is listed by the charter chool assosiasion as so, how can I be sure? Is ther eany instances where people went on to colleg eonly to be disqualified because of the school they went to in high school?
2) Will I have a hard time in calculus? I haven't taken trig, pre calc, or caluclus. I have taken a good amount of geometry, algebra (However, not factoring, parabolas, or other high end algebra. I am good with exponets and solving algebriac equations)
3) I am going to college to (hopefully) study physics. I will start from the basics, and go up from there.

YOU ARE STUPID YOU WON'T DO GOOD IN CALCULUS. *INSERT GENERIC REPLY OTHER PF MEMBERS ARE USING*

...
Just kidding. :P

I guess your problem is the lack of background-- it really depends on what you mean well by "do good in calculus".

I can kinda speak from experience-- I used to go online while I was in Algebra 1 (The class where they teach you how to factor.. I'm guessing you only did Pre-Algebra?) and research stuff on calculus... boy was it fun.. but I barely understood the stuff... I mean, the concepts would make sense (e.g. derivatives = rates of changes, integrals = infinite sum, limit = expected value) but I really wouldn't know how to apply them, let alone explain them in detail.

Then, I somehow got to skip geometry and went onto Algebra 2 where we learned more about functions... this is where some stuff started making sense-- how to evaluate derivatives, integrals and limits... things got a lot more clear over the year after I took Algebra 1, but not clear enough-- I lacked a good course in trigonometry.. so I bought a Schaum's Outline of Calculus. (Which covers everything you need from Pre-Calc to Calculus III, by the way)

Things slowly got clearer and are still getting clearer (Although I can't say I'm familiar with the formal stuff of calculus) but the thing is, it's only getting clearer as my idea of basic mathematics (Algebra, vector algebra, trigonometry) is getting clearer...

So anyway, it's hard to say if you would do well in Calculus with your limited background but, if you really feel you can quickly catch onto and understand mathematics, I suggest you purchase a book on Algebra; I suggest buying Algebra Structure and Method Book 1 and 2 (Book 2 goes into trigonometry-- something you need), and a good Calculus book. (Stewart's Calculus is awesome...) And while you're at it, since you want to get into physics, a very simple-in-approach book is "Physics: Principles and Problems" by Zitzewitz & Nef, and once you get all of the physics and math background out of the way, get a good university physics level textbook like "Fundamentals of Physics"...

But maybe I'm getting too ahead of myself by suggesting Calculus and Physics books to you-- but I guess it's good to know in advance. Or something.

Best of luck to you dude and hope everything works out in the end!

 

[erik-the-red]

A bit off topic but what is actually in "college algebra" and "pre-calculus" ?

Is college algebra the same as our A-level, but without the differentiation and integration? (Things like partial fractions, vector algebra, complex numbers, all trig identities, basic matrices, etc), and is Pre-calculus a course like we would call mathematical analysis (turning vague arguments into rigorous mathematical proofs).Or am I well off?

Having taken both college algebra and pre-calculus as an audit (ie. not enrolled as a student, sit-in), I can say that you are way-off, but that is a matter of semantics across an ocean

College algebra is generally a misnomer. The materials covered SHOULD be covered in high school (e.g. operations, factoring, basic polynomials, etc.). Universities with this course generally offer it as part of the core curriculum. It is by no means mandatory, just an option to fulfill the math requirement.

Precalculus is even more vague. What is precalculus, based on the term? All the math before calculus? Generally, it is trigonometry and advanced algebra. Conics will be covered, basic matrix operations, in addition to the sine / cosine / tangent that we all love. This class should also be covered in high school.

What you described as college algebra fits precalculus better. What you described as precalculus generally doesn't exist in high school or college. Heck, I was cheated of a true geometry education as my fellow peers kept complaining until my teacher didn't assign any more proofs. I wish I had done more on my own, because they aren't covered in any other math class.

 

[G01]

(Stewart's Calculus is awesome...)

Im using Stewarts calc book now in class. I agree its amazing.

 

[Nothing000]

Stewarts Calc sucks. He makes things harder than they have to be. I think a good Calc book is the one written by Larson, Hostetler, and Edwards.

 

[erik-the-red]

Most post-reform calculus texts are the same, really.

If you want harder problems, you should look at pre-reform or early reform [texts].

The best post-reform text IMO is Calculus with Analytic Geometry, 9th ed., by Finney and Thomas.