College remedial math and English requirements

[Geezer]

Link: http://www.suntimes.com/5189336-417/report-over-a-third-of-students-entering-college-need-remedial-help.html"

Wow. Perhaps because I live in this math-intensive bubble that is university physics, I had no idea that so many students entering college weren't "ready" for college-level math (or English, for that matter)...

 

[Astronuc]

From the article:

High school teachers and administrators are either unaware of what is expected in college, or unable to align their curricula with college prep because the material on standardized tests does not match material colleges are looking for students to know. Colleges also use a variety of placement tests, which adds to the confusion over what students need to know.

. . . .

I saw much the same problem 35+ years ago when I went to high school. Fortunately, I went to a high school where my teachers did know what was expected in university, and my math (analytical geometry and calculus) class and chemistry class used university textbooks. The physics textbook may have been a university-level textbook.

Apparently though, teachers these days are more or less required to teach what they teach by the local school boards and/or school district administration.

 

[ideasrule]

(Disclaimer: I'm Canadian.) It's no secret amongst college students that expectations in college are much higher than in high school. To quote a friend, "In [our high school], you study to get 95%. In the University of Toronto, you study to pass." Our high school wasn't a diploma mill, either--it was relatively prestigious, with reasonably strict academic requirements.

Unfortunately I can't compare my own experiences because I'm going to university in a different country, under a completely different system. But quite a few of my friends got 90's in grade 12, failed to adapt to the completely different standards and teaching methods in university, and got 70's in freshman year.

 

[Chi Meson]

Community Colleges are AKA "grades 13 &14," except now the kids pay for not studying.

Even in my "New England, east coast, high-performing" high school, any student who gets a "C" in a "College Prep" class, got it by not-actively-ignoring all lectures, and handing in about half of the required assignments. Even in the "Honors" classes, I get students who are conditioned to believe they deserve an A simply because assignments were completed. If a GPA-wary students see a "B" coming around the corner in my honors class, they drop down to the "College Prep" class where they are assured of an A by simply showing up. "I'm worried about my GPA" is a line I hear about a dozen times during the second week of classes.

The following is a gross over-generalization, but the gist is true. Grades are hyper-inflated in public schools, but in most cases the potential to achieve is still provided. If anyone thought for a minute that a 3.0 GPA in college prep classes were "good grades," that that person needs a short, sharp shock. They missed their chance at learning for free, and if they want higher education, it's going to cost 'em.

And for Johnny Q. Public concerned about paying for education twice: you would have paid twice anyway if those students were held back in public school.

Main culprit here is the myth that everybody has to go to college. Imagine if a kid gets a menial job at the age of 16, but decides to do it well. Where will that kid be in 6 years? Compare that to the same kid who slides through "college prep" classes, then does two (or three) years at a community college, then finishes up at a lower-tier, for-profit, private college. Kid one has worked full-time for 6 years, kid two has debt and is just now entering the full-time workforce (and possibly the same menial job he could have had at 16).

All conjecture, I know.

 

[Chi Meson]

Apparently though, teachers these days are more or less required to teach what they teach by the local school boards and/or school district administration.

Luckily, the state of Connecticut does not have "Standards" published for high school Physics. I have the very rare condition of being uninhibited in what I teach in my curriculum. Consequently, students learn a lot of physics. If the state ever gets around to establishing curriculum guidelines, and then if my town's B of Ed requires that I follow those guidelines, then I'll have a specific textbook thrust in my face, and a middle-school-foreign-language teacher will decide to add to Physics a requirement of xx hours of cross-curriculum and cross-cultural lessons.

 

[Astronuc]

Community Colleges are AKA "grades 13 &14," except now the kids pay for not studying.

It seems that way.

The following is a gross over-generalization, but the gist is true. Grades are hyper-inflated in public schools, but in most cases the potential to achieve is still provided. If anyone thought for a minute that a 3.0 GPA in college prep classes were "good grades," that that person needs a short, sharp shock. They missed their chance at learning for free, and if they want higher education, it's going to cost 'em.

And for Johnny Q. Public concerned about paying for education twice: you would have paid twice anyway if those students were held back in public school.

Perhaps a moderate generalization, but not gross.

Main culprit here is the myth that everybody has to go to college.

My wife, a teaching assistant, pointed out some folks, who in the past would have simply gotten a trade, clerical or service job with just a high school diploma, are now going to college, because the belief is that a college degree is a requirement for a good job. Many are not intellectually or constitutionally suited for a university program.

All conjecture, I know.

Perhaps, but the comments are consistent with my observations and experience.

 

[Astronuc]

Luckily, the state of Connecticut does not have "Standards" published for high school Physics. I have the very rare condition of being uninhibited in what I teach in my curriculum. Consequently, students learn a lot of physics. If the state ever gets around to establishing curriculum guidelines, and then if my town's B of Ed requires that I follow those guidelines, then I'll have a specific textbook thrust in my face, and a middle-school-foreign-language teacher will decide to add to Physics a requirement of xx hours of cross-curriculum and cross-cultural lessons.

That's great. You may be an exception. I had exceptional teachers, but I also had some who probably should not have been teaching the subjects they were teaching.

One summer between 10th and 11th grade, I encountered an exceptionally brilliant physics teacher, who just happened to be a PhD from Caltech. He was great at blending experiment and theory. I was taking a summer course in physics for high school students at a local university.

I transferred high schools that summer, and it turned out he was teaching at the new school. He was also a graduate of the high school, and he returned to share some of his experience and wisdom. Unfortunately for me, he only taught 2 years, and left before I could take his physics class. I don't know if he became discouraged, or because he had an opportunity to research at Shell.

His replacement was rather poor.

One week during my senior year, one of the elderly chemistry teachers was out for a week due to illness. My chemistry teacher, who was the head of the science department, arranged to have me substitute for that teacher. I was somewhat discouraged by the lack of interest of the students.

 

[AlephZero]

I saw much the same problem 35+ years ago when I went to high school.

I think the UK is lagging a bit behind the US here, but don't worry, we are catching up as fast as we can

When politicians claim that exam pass rates of over 98% (and still rising every year) are "a good thing", you have to wonder if it would be better to just print a randomly selected list of academic qualifications on every new born baby's birth certificate, and skip the time and cost of this "eddukayshun" stuff altogether.

 

[TurtleMeister]

Main culprit here is the myth that everybody has to go to college. Imagine if a kid gets a menial job at the age of 16, but decides to do it well. Where will that kid be in 6 years? Compare that to the same kid who slides through "college prep" classes, then does two (or three) years at a community college, then finishes up at a lower-tier, for-profit, private college. Kid one has worked full-time for 6 years, kid two has debt and is just now entering the full-time workforce (and possibly the same menial job he could have had at 16).

All conjecture, I know.

Well, I agree with your conjecture. I'm glad I never continued my education after high school. I went to work at the age of 18 and within a year I had a good paying job as an electronic technician. I can see things somewhat from both perspectives because I was with my fiance throughout all of her grad school years. So I know what she had to go through. And even though she already has her masters, and should have her phd within the next year, even she is having doubts about whether she made the right decision. So just sliding through and finishing up at a lower-tier college seems like a useless waste of time to me.

Having said that, I do wish I had studied math when I was younger. I didn't know that I would develop such an interest in physics. But financially, I still think I did the best thing.

 

[Chi Meson]

There are people with a bachelor's degree in Physics who would have loved to have a job as good as electronic technician (ahem--"yo"). I put the first 5 years of my degree to use as a bike and ski technician (a great job, actually, I loved it but ... not a career.)

 

[Evo]

because the belief is that a college degree is a requirement for a good job.

Unfortunately, due to the number of applicants a company gets these days (unless it's manual labor), you need a college education just to be able to apply for most jobs. If you submit a resume without a college degree, they won't even waste time reading it.

 

[gravenewworld]

You should really watch season 4 of the wire. It goes a long way showing how dysfunctional much of our education system is and how it is failing a lot of our kids. \

 

[TurtleMeister]

Unfortunately, due to the number of applicants a company gets these days (unless it's manual labor), you need a college education just to be able to apply for most jobs. If you submit a resume without a college degree, they won't even waste time reading it.

Good point. The economy is a lot different today than it was when I was 18. :)

 

[Astronuc]

Unfortunately, due to the number of applicants a company gets these days (unless it's manual labor), you need a college education just to be able to apply for most jobs. If you submit a resume without a college degree, they won't even waste time reading it.

This is true.

Then again, I've reviewed resumes of potential hires, and these are folks with a 4-year engineering degree. I'm often disappointed.

We generally have a policy of not hiring anyone with less than a MS degree.

Once in a while, we find an exceptional student/graduate.

 

[Borek]

From the trend I see here inflation hits not only grades, but also degrees. Many BScs are not worth paper their diplomas are printed on.

 

[HeLiXe]

My school recruited me to tutor remedial students in math and English, but I had no idea this was so much of a problem. Initially I understood that remedial classes were offered solely in math and English, but now there are remedial classes for other subjects such as chemistry and biology--even if you have taken them in high school. I had honors chem I and II in high school and had to pay to take a chem placement exam in order to bypass taking a remedial class. Many people who took the remedial chemistry class have commented that they are being taught the same thing again in chem I, so I wonder if some of this is just for profit.

 

[Geezer]

Unfortunately, due to the number of applicants a company gets these days (unless it's manual labor), you need a college education just to be able to apply for most jobs. If you submit a resume without a college degree, they won't even waste time reading it.

I saw this apropos post on Fark:

I saw a job posting a couple of weeks ago on the website of a large industrial firm. I'll never forget this one. The job posting was for a building maintenance technician/janitor. I'm not adding the "janitor" bit - the job description explicitly stated they wanted someone who would not only maintain the production equipment, but also keep the place tidy and take out the trash.

The pay was underwhelming and the benefits were barely passable. The kicker? They wanted their janitor to have a bachelor's degree.

 

[Geezer]

Community Colleges are AKA "grades 13 &14," except now the kids pay for not studying.

Or, if they're getting Pell grants or other government aid to pay for school, we taxpayers are the ones paying for them to learn the remedial material. Actually, we pay twice: once while they're in high school, and again when they have to re-take the course in community college.

I'm not a fan of NCLB and the teaching-to-the-test culture that has sense developed in public schools, but I totally support a national high school exit exam to get a high school diploma, something that sets a high standard in order to qualify for the high school diploma and enter college. If you don't pass the test, you don't get a diploma (though you can get some version of a participation certificate showing you attended high school for four years) and can't go on to college.

 

[Proton Soup]

this reminds me of that link posted elsewhere about the skyrocketing cost of education. i think upper education has become a scam where inappropriate levels of education are being applied to some pretty mundane technician type jobs that don't even merit the pay to justify the costs of a university diploma. some things need to stay at the junior colleges.

 

[rootX]

this reminds me of that link posted elsewhere about the skyrocketing cost of education. i think upper education has become a scam where inappropriate levels of education are being applied to some pretty mundane technician type jobs that don't even merit the pay to justify the costs of a university diploma. some things need to stay at the junior colleges.

That might be this link:
http://nplusonemag.com/bad-educationI think most of the companies don't need skills learned in colleges but vocational education will just be sufficient.

 

[QuarkCharmer]

I think community colleges definitely have a place in the education system, but there are a few aspects that seem to be strictly about the money, and I tend to agree that they act as a sort of 13/14th grade for outgoing high school students.

Following high school, I could have got into a decent state university with my mediocre grades, but I am glad that I did not. I never took my education seriously and I would have only added to the statistic being discussed in this thread. Some 10 years later, I am a much more responsible adult, and I understand the value of education. A Community College gave me the ability to essentially re-learn what I should have taken away from high school.

I noticed that several courses there were identical. I took Intermediate Algebra, College Algebra, Pre-calculus, and Trigonometry. I would say that all four of those courses could be condensed down into two. The coursework for all of them (except for trig) was virtually identical, the only difference being pre-calculus where conic sections were covered and we were introduced to the difference quotient (though without limits).

I placed into General Chemistry I, having taken no chemistry in high school (I went to a rather poor high school). I elected to take a course "Intro to Chemistry" instead because I was unsure of my knowledge and wanted to learn things the proper way. When I began taking General Chemistry I, I realized that it is EXACTLY the same as the "Intro" course, with perhaps one chapter in the book being different. General Chemistry II was a bit different, mainly the labs.

I have since transferred to a decent university, and one thing remains constant. The attitude and character of those around me, taking the same courses, but significantly younger. They have this sort of "good enough" attitude, as though they feel they need to "just make it through this college thing" so they can land some huge job. These students complain about their grades, and the "unfair grading practices" of the professors and TA's, even when the course is more than reasonable.

The idea that an 18 year old is "not college material" is silly. Some of them are, some of them aren't, but most of them "could be". I would fully blame the U.S. education system for this problem. Rather than encouraging students to actually learn something of interest, we were prepped for pointless state exams that have no bearing on future colleges and only serve to help the school gain more funding. Considering how the idea that "College will get you a high paying career" is instilled into our minds from the day we start school, you would think that the education system would better prepare students for it.

 

[micromass]

I would fully blame the U.S. education system for this problem. Rather than encouraging students to actually learn something of interest, we were prepped for pointless state exams that have no bearing on future colleges and only serve to help the school gain more funding. Considering how the idea that "College will get you a high paying career" is instilled into our minds from the day we start school, you would think that the education system would better prepare students for it.

I disagree with you here. Certainly the state exams are stupid, but I don't think they cause the problem. Here in Belgium, we don't have state exams and other such nonsense, but we have essentially the same problems as described in ths thread.

The education system is likely to blame, but so are the students and society. Most students don't value hard work and education because everybody else does. If you like science classes then you're a nerd, so you better hate it nowadays...

 

[khemist]

The education system is likely to blame, but so are the students and society. Most students don't value hard work and education because everybody else does. If you like science classes then you're a nerd, so you better hate it nowadays...

It has essentially become cool to be stupid. Going to an Oakland public school showed me first hand that high school for most students is simply a social tool, not a place to learn and advance in society. Kids who were suspended from school still showed up just to hang out with their friends, though now they don't have to worry about cutting class.

 

[HeLiXe]

I think most of the companies don't need skills learned in colleges but vocational education will just be sufficient.

Many organizations are working to encourage students to go to a vocational school instead of college, particularly if their GPA is less than a B.