Converting Second Order to First Order: A Systematic Approach

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around converting a second-order differential equation representing a central force field into a system of first-order equations. Participants explore the implications of this transformation, particularly regarding the roles of additional variables in the system.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks if the second-order equation can be converted into a system of first-order equations.
  • Another participant proposes defining new variables, $x_{1}=x$ and $x_{2}=x'$, to create a first-order system, but questions the roles of $y$ and $z$ in this context.
  • A participant notes that the equation describes a central force field and suggests an alternative form of the equation, leading to a derived expression involving $\dot r^2$.
  • Some participants speculate that there are additional equations corresponding to the variables $y$ and $z$, questioning how these would be transformed into first-order equations.
  • A later reply confirms the initial transformation and proposes a complete system of equations for $x$, $y$, and $z$, while also correcting a previous typo in the original equation.
  • Another participant reiterates the transformation approach for $y$ and $z$, suggesting a similar structure to the first-order system for $x$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the treatment of the additional variables $y$ and $z$, with some proposing that they are independent functions of time while others suggest they should be included in the system of equations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact nature of these variables and their implications for the transformation process.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions about the independence of $y$ and $z$ and how they interact with the transformation of the second-order equation. The discussion also highlights potential typos and variations in the equations presented.

Dustinsfl
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Can this second order be changed into a system of first order:
$$
x''(t) = -\frac{\mu}{(\sqrt{x^2+y^2+z^2})^3}x
$$
 
Last edited:
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Let $x_{1}=x$ and $x_{2}=x'$. Then you have the first-order system
\begin{align*}
x_{1}'&=x_{2}\\
x_{2}'&=-\frac{\mu}{ \left(x_{1}^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2} \right)^{3/2}}.
\end{align*}
What are $y$ and $z$ doing? Are they independent functions of time?
 
Last edited:
Physically, this looks like a central force field with a force that varies inversely with the 3rd power of distance.

Can it be that you actually have: $r''(t)=- {\mu \over r^3}$?

If that is the case you can do the following:

$\ddot r=- {\mu \over r^3}$

Multiply left and right with $2 \dot r$.
$2\ddot r \dot r = -2 {\mu \over r^3} \dot r$

$\dot r^2 = {\mu \over r^2} + C$
 
My guess - there are two more equations that go with this one!
 
Jester said:
My guess - there are two more equations that go with this one!

There but if it was straight forward in changing the first equation, I would have done the other two. Will 2 other coupled equations alter how they are re-written as first order equations?

$$
y''(t) = -\frac{\mu}{(\sqrt{x^2+y^2+z^2})^3}y
$$
$$
z''(t) = -\frac{\mu}{(\sqrt{x^2+y^2+z^2})^3}z
$$
 
Ackbach said:
Let $x_{1}=x$ and $x_{2}=x'$. Then you have the first-order system
\begin{align*}
x_{1}'&=x_{2}\\
x_{2}'&=-\frac{\mu}{ \left(x_{1}^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2} \right)^{3/2}}.
\end{align*}
What are $y$ and $z$ doing? Are they independent functions of time?

I had a typo by the way
$$
x''(t) = -\frac{\mu}{(\sqrt{x^2+y^2+z^2})^2}x
$$
 
Assuming
$$x''(t)=-\frac{\mu}{(x^{2}+y^{2}+z^{2})^{3/2}}\,x,$$
then you can let $x_{1}$ and $x_{2}$ be defined as above, and let $y_{1}=y$ and $y_{2}=y'$, as well as $z_{1}=z$ and $z_{2}=z'$. Then you get the following system:
\begin{align*}
x_{1}'&=x_{2}\\
y_{1}'&=y_{2}\\
z_{1}'&=z_{2}\\
x_{2}'&=-\frac{\mu}{(x_{1}^{2}+y_{1}^{2}+z_{1}^{2})^{3/2}}\,x_{1}\\
y_{2}'&=-\frac{\mu}{(x_{1}^{2}+y_{1}^{2}+z_{1}^{2})^{3/2}}\,y_{1}\\
z_{2}'&=-\frac{\mu}{(x_{1}^{2}+y_{1}^{2}+z_{1}^{2})^{3/2}}\,z_{1}.
\end{align*}
 

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