Explain Humor in "Haddocks Eyes" for Alice in Wonderland Fans

[glb_lub]

Could someone explain the humor in "Haddocks Eyes" - (for Alice in Wonderland fans)?

Hello , I was recently reminded of a section of 'Through The Looking Glass' - the one about Haddock's Eyes because of a post here at PF :-

This reminds me of "Haddock's Eyes". :tongue2:

I will post the relevant material :-

“You are sad,” the Knight said in an anxious tone: “Let me sing you a song to comfort you.”

“Is it very long?” Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.

“It's long,” said the Knight, “but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it - either it brings the tears to their eyes, or else -”

“Or else what?” said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.

“Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called ‘Haddocks' Eyes.’”

“Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.

“No, you don't understand,” the Knight said, looking a little vexed. “That's what the name is called. The name really is ‘The Aged Aged Man.’”

“Then I ought to have said ‘That's what the song is called’?” Alice corrected herself.

“No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called ‘Ways And Means’: but that's only what it's called, you know!”

“Well, what is the song, then?” said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

“I was coming to that,” the Knight said. “The song really is ‘A-sitting On A Gate’: and the tune's my own invention.”

Well , I understood the humor till 'The Aged Aged Man' , but I am confused after that point.

Here's what I understood -
The name of the song is :-The Aged Aged Man
The name of the name of the song is :- Haddock's Eyes.

But I am unable to understand what 'Ways and Means' and 'A-sitting on A gate' stand for.(Or is it the case that from this point on it really is nonsensical ?) Jokes and puns lose their punch if explained , but I just am not getting it here. .
It is so maddening that I am beginning to appreciate the point made by the Cheshire cat, when he says that we are all mad here.

 

[tiny-tim]

my friend's cat …

is called "kitty"

is named "montmorency montescue parminedes"

and is my friend's cat ​

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

“You are sad,” the Knight said in an anxious tone: “Let me sing you a song to comfort you.”

“Is it very long?” Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.

“It's long,” said the Knight, “but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it - either it brings the tears to their eyes, or else -”

“Or else what?” said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.

“Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called ‘Haddocks' Eyes.’”

“Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.

“No, you don't understand,” the Knight said, looking a little vexed. “That's what the name is called. The name really is ‘The Aged Aged Man.’”

“Then I ought to have said ‘That's what the song is called’?” Alice corrected herself.

“No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called ‘Ways And Means’: but that's only what it's called, you know!”

“Well, what is the song, then?” said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.

“I was coming to that,” the Knight said. “The song really is ‘A-sitting On A Gate’: and the tune's my own invention.”

Song is ...
Song is called ...
Name is ...
Name is called ...

 

[glb_lub]

Song is ...
Song is called ...
Name is ...
Name is called ...

I still am a bit fuzzy.

Here is where I am confused :-
1) Isn't 'Name' = 'What the song is called' ?

So why should there be there be two different values for 'Name is'(which is given as 'The Aged Aged Man') and 'Song is Called'(which is given as 'Ways and Means') ?

Or is it just the case of their being multiple names for the same object ? (as so often happens in life , for example a person who is named Robert is also called Bob sometimes)

2) It is given that the Song is 'A-sitting On A Gate' ,

Should the entire song be written within quotes ? Sorry , for still not getting the joke.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I think what's going on here is that Carroll is humorously amplifying the confusion that might result from the King James version of the Bible, which all his readers at the time would have been familiar with.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

It is a strange thing to say "his name shall be called". Why not "his name will be", or "he will be called"? Instead, we get the fusion of the two "his name shall be called", which directly says without meaning to, not that he will be called those things, but that his name will be called those things.

I happen to remember this passage in particular because Handel uses it in "The Messiah", but there are probably more places in the Bible where this construction is used. I don't know if this reflects the English of the time of the translation, or the original language. Regardless, it is certainly an awkward and misleading enough construction to provoke someone like Carroll, who was into word play, into this descant on the silliness of the logic of the construction, removed from a religious context, of course.

 

[tiny-tim]

… there are probably more places in the Bible where this construction is used. I don't know if this reflects the English of the time of the translation, or the original language.

it is in the original language (biblical hebrew)

it's from Isaiah 9:5 (or 9:6) …

and his name is called wonderful etc (vayikrah shemo pele … וַיִּקְרָא שְׁמוֹ פֶּלֶא)​

vayikrah = and called, shemo = his name, pele = wonderful

the same phrase is used throughout the Old Testament (to search, go to http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0.htm and enter וַיִּקְרָא), here are some examples from Genesis …

Genesis 2:19-20 …

and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them (mah yikrah lo מַה-יִּקְרָא-לוֹ); and whatsoever the man would call every living creature, that was to be the name thereof. And the man gave names to all cattle … (vayikrah ha'adam shemos lecol habehamoh ... וַיִּקְרָא הָאָדָם שֵׁמוֹת, לְכָל-הַבְּהֵמָה)​

also Genesis 5:2, 3, 29 …

and called their name Adam …
And Adam … called his name Seth
And he called his name Noah …​

also Genesis 35:8, 15 and 20 …

and the name of it was called Allon-bacuth …
And Jacob called the name of the place where God spoke with him, Beth-el …
and He called his name Israel …​

Genesis 26:18, 20, 21, 22 …

And Isaac digged again the wells … and he called their names after the names by which his father had called them.
And he called the name of the well Esek …
And he called the name of it Sitnah …
And he called the name of it Rehoboth …​

Interestingly, Genesis 26:33 …

And he called it [a well] Shibah. Therefore the name of the city is Beer-sheba unto this day. (vayikrah osah shivah, ul-cain-shem-ha'ir be'air shevah … וַיִּקְרָא אֹתָהּ, שִׁבְעָה; עַל-כֵּן שֵׁם-הָעִיר בְּאֵר שֶׁבַע)​

"vayikrah" can also mean the other sense of "called", see Genesis 26:9 …

And Abimelech called Isaac, and said … (vayikrah Abimelech vYitzhak … וַיִּקְרָא אֲבִימֶלֶךְ לְיִצְחָק)​

also Genesis 12:17, Genesis 21:3, 17, Genesis 28:1 …

And Pharaoh called Abram …
and the angel of God called to Hagar …
And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him …​

 

[zoobyshoe]

"...and Tiny-Tim's name, henceforth, shall be called researcher, for he is of those who are thorough and comprehensive in the finding of information..."

 

[jtbell]

“I was coming to that,” the Knight said. “The song really is [...]"

Of course, at this point, the Knight should have actually started to sing.

 

[glb_lub]

it is in the original language (biblical hebrew)

Wow , I wasn't aware that 'Haddocks Eyes' conversation had such a background of biblical proportions.

Of course, at this point, the Knight should have actually started to sing.

Thanks , this perfectly addresses what I intended to ask in the doubt #2 of my previous post.

But I am still not getting the solution to doubt #1. :-

I still am a bit fuzzy.

Here is where I am confused :-
1) Isn't 'Name' = 'What the song is called' ?

So why should there be there be two different values for 'Name is'(which is given as 'The Aged Aged Man') and 'Song is Called'(which is given as 'Ways and Means') ?

Or is it just the case of their being multiple names for the same object ? (as so often happens in life , for example a person who is named Robert is also called Bob sometimes)

Do 'Ways and Means' and 'The Aged Aged Man' name the same object viz. the song ? (Just as 'Charles Lutwidge Dodgson' and 'Lewis Carroll' name the same person)By the way , thanks everyone for participating in this thread. All of your responses helped me in a better understanding of the passage.

 

[SecularSanity]

There is a passage in Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass where he chooses to use a nonstandard device for naming. At first what the Knight is saying to Alice may appear to be literal nonsense. But it is not; it is merely unconventional. However, in addition to adopting a nonstandard manner of naming, Carroll introduces the further complicating wrinkle of distinguishing between the name of an item and what that item is called. Normally we think of these as one and the same thing; persons and things tend to be called by their names. But not always. We do make a distinction between names and nicknames (i.e. what persons are called, if not by their names). For example, we might find ourselves saying, "His name actually is 'Richard', but he's called 'Dick'." [Note 5] When the Knight says (below) that the song is called (rather than named) "Ways and Means", he apparently means that this is the song's nickname. [Note 6] Finally, to make the passage as coherent as possible, we probably should want to understand the sentence "The song really is 'A-sitting On a Gate' " as the Knight's previewing a fragment (the fourth line) of the song that he is about to sing, rather than as an attempt at naming that song. "You are sad," the Knight said in an anxious tone: "let me sing you a song to comfort you."
"Is it very long?" Alice asked, for she had heard a good deal of poetry that day.
"It's long," said the Knight, "but it's very, very beautiful. Everybody that hears me sing it —either it brings the tears into their eyes, or else —"
"Or else what?" said Alice, for the Knight had made a sudden pause.
"Or else it doesn't, you know. The name of the song is called 'Haddocks' Eyes.'"
"Oh, that's the name of the song, is it?" Alice said, trying to feel interested.
"No, you don't understand," the Knight said, looking a little vexed. "That's what the name is called. The name really is 'The Aged Aged Man.'"
"Then I ought to have said 'That's what the song is called'?" Alice corrected herself.
"No, you oughtn't: that's quite another thing! The song is called 'Ways and Means': but that's only what it's called, you know!"
"Well, what is the song, then?" said Alice, who was by this time completely bewildered.
"I was coming to that," the Knight said. "The song really is 'A-sitting On A Gate': and the tune's my own invention."
So saying, he stopped his horse and let the reins fall on its neck: then, slowly beating time with one hand, and with a faint smile lighting up his gentle foolish face, as if he enjoyed the music of his song, he began. ([1], Chapter VIII)

To sum up this passage: we have (1) the song itself ([part of which is] "... A-sitting On a Gate. ..."); (2) the (official) name, "The Aged Aged Man", of that song; (3) an (unofficial) nickname (i.e. what the song is called), "Ways and Means"; and finally (4) a nickname, "Haddocks' Eyes", of the name ("The Aged Aged Man").

http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/use_and_mention.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use–mention_distinction

 

[glb_lub]

http://www.sfu.ca/~swartz/use_and_mention.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use–mention_distinction

Thanks. This explains it perfectly. Doubt resolved or rather joke understood. Now I can laugh, ha ha.

Thanks everyone.