Cummins rigged about 1 million Ram pickup trucks to cheat emissions

[nsaspook]

Some people just don't learn. The VW type software cheat continues.
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/unit...el-engine-manufacturer-cummins-inc-agrees-pay

https://www.thecooldown.com/green-business/cummins-truck-emissions-justice-department-fine/
COMPANY FINED NEARLY $2 BILLION OVER ILLEGAL MODIFICATIONS ON PICKUP TRUCKS:

According to the Justice Department, Cummins rigged about 1 million Ram pickup trucks to cheat emissions tests so they looked cleaner than they actually are, reported The New York Times. As a result, 630,000 model year 2013-2019 Ram engines and 330,000 model year 2019-2023 Ram engines have secretly been releasing nitrogen oxide, which forms smog.

 

[Bandersnatch]

I wonder if this is another case of penalties being lower than what they earn by cheating.

They've sold a million dodgy cars, and were fined two billion. So, as long as they saved more than a couple grand on each engine by cheating the system the whole thing could still be profitable - and therefore incentivised.
I don't know if it's the case, but two grand per on a ~$40k vehicle doesn't seem like a terribly high bar to pass.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Some people just don't learn.

Sort of. Cummins starred this in 2013, and VW happened in 2015.

A good question is "Well, why didn't they stop?"

A better question is "If management's position is 'we didn't know what was going oj - how do you expect us to understand that technical stuff?' why does top management consist so heavily of legal, marketing and finance people rather than engineering and production?"

 

[jack action]

I wonder if this is another case of penalties being lower than what they earn by cheating.

They've sold a million dodgy cars, and were fined two billion. So, as long as they saved more than a couple grand on each engine by cheating the system the whole thing could still be profitable - and therefore incentivised.
I don't know if it's the case, but two grand per on a ~$40k vehicle doesn't seem like a terribly high bar to pass.

I highly doubt this is about making money the easy way. It is most likely about keeping the company alive after failing to have a working design.

Imagine you have worked on a new design for a few years just to find out it doesn't work to the expectations. What do you do? You tell your customers and shareholders you will not sell engines for the next few years while you work on a new design? You will sell engines from your competitor in the meantime? This is a death warrant for the company in every case.

But if you cheat a little bit, it will end up costing you a little bit more in the end, but the company will survive until your next design is ready for market and PR will most likely be an easier problem to solve in the future. Better than closing the factory for sure. Everything is even better if you don't get caught!

In the way society works today, I'm pretty sure anyone would make a similar decision in such a case. To modify this behavior, we have to create a society where the wins and losses are better shared with everyone.

 

[nsaspook]

Sort of. Cummins starred this in 2013, and VW happened in 2015.

A good question is "Well, why didn't they stop?"

A better question is "If management's position is 'we didn't know what was going oj - how do you expect us to understand that technical stuff?' why does top management consist so heavily of legal, marketing and finance people rather than engineering and production?"

Management? We all know who's really to blame.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/volkswagen-pulls-2016-diesel-lineup-from-us-market/

VW says rogue engineers, not executives, responsible for emissions scandal​

 

[nsaspook]

I highly doubt this is about making money the easy way. It is most likely about keeping the company alive after failing to have a working design.

Imagine you have worked on a new design for a few years just to find out it doesn't work to the expectations. What do you do? You tell your customers and shareholders you will not sell engines for the next few years while you work on a new design? You will sell engines from your competitor in the meantime? This is a death warrant for the company in every case.

But if you cheat a little bit, it will end up costing you a little bit more in the end, but the company will survive until your next design is ready for market and PR will most likely be an easier problem to solve in the future. Better than closing the factory for sure. Everything is even better if you don't get caught!

In the way society works today, I'm pretty sure anyone would make a similar decision in such a case. To modify this behavior, we have to create a society where the wins and losses are better shared with everyone.

In the old WV thread, it was said they all cheated because none could really make it work (good emissions and consumers expected engine performance ) without cheating.

 

[Vanadium 50]

They've sold a million dodgy cars

I saw what you did there.

 

[Hornbein]

Management? We all know who's really to blame.

View attachment 340521

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/10/volkswagen-pulls-2016-diesel-lineup-from-us-market/

VW says rogue engineers, not executives, responsible for emissions scandal​

The game is always the same. Set goals then don't ask questions about how they are reached.

 

[nsaspook]

The game is always the same. Set goals then don't ask questions about how they are reached.

We rogue engineers won't take this anymore.

“Emissions? No, this cigar has a catalytic converter.”

Rogues have come a long way from the fifties and sixties, where they were marginalised into cheeky but loveable roles on the fringes of the economy; think George Cole as Arthur Daley.

You now find rogues occupying important roles in industry, finance and the public sector. But there is still “much to do” say leading rogues, as they continue to be blamed for many of societies ills.

From institutional racism in the police, to systematic greed in the banking sector, the finger is often pointed at a rogue.

And now VW, who find themselves engulfed by emissions test fixing scandals, are suggesting that rogues working as engineers at VW are to blame.

“We just do what they allow us to do,” writes an anonymous rogue in a book that promises to ” lift the lid ” on rogue culture, breaking their strict code of silence.

“Or we just do what everyone else is doing…but with a naughty glint in our eye, and a cheeky smile.”

However rogue community leaders have distanced themselves from the new book, dismissing it as the work of a rogue rogue.

 

[hutchphd]

The game is always the same. Set goals then don't ask questions about how they are reached.

I consider this to be another tragic example of company management that has become disconnected from engineering competence. As an Indiana resdent it is doubly tragic to me because Cummins has been a remarkably good corporate citizan in Columbus IN and provided the town with amenities not usually fournd in the Midwest, most particularly some intertesting civic architecture. This was possible because of corporate profits to be sure but these were thought to be the result of good engineering not corporate shenanigans. Alas. Crap, I feel old.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I too thought of Cummins as one of the good guys.

I do think there is a regulatory problem that drives (no pun intended) people to these bad decisions. Ignoring the political issue ("You shouldn't drive a pcikup at all, you deplorable! You should drive a Tesla like us!") you still have some oddities. One is that NOx and fuel economy are, all things being equal, anti-correlated. Regulating both runs the risk of an overconstrained system with no solution or a non-optimal one: most people would say a 10% improvement in mileage is worth a 1% increase in NOx, but such a change (if it were even possible) might well be illegal.

Emissions requirements are per mile (or possibly per gallon, I forget which). If you have half the emissions but drive it 10x as much, have you really improved? Taxing or rationing addresses the actual issue of public concern: total NOx. The present system at best does so indirectly.

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.therepublic.com/2024/02...er-and-customer-lawsuits-after-2b-settlement/
Cummins faces shareholder and customer lawsuits after $2B settlement

Cummins did not admit to any wrongdoing in the Clean Air Act case, in which federal and California officials alleged the company had installed devices to bypass emissions tests on nearly a million Ram 2500 and 3500 pickup trucks produced from 2013 to 2023.

Sure, they wrote a $2B check out of the goodness of their sweet bean counter hearts.

 

[Vanadium 50]

How does a shareholder sue the company? They are the company!

 

[nsaspook]

How does a shareholder sue the company? They are the company!

Because, reasons. Lawyers.