Dark Energy & Expanding Universe: Newtonian Perspective

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of dark energy and the expansion of the universe from a Newtonian perspective. Participants explore the implications of unseen matter outside the observable universe and its potential gravitational effects on the observable galaxies and stars. The conversation touches on theoretical frameworks, gravitational forces, and the relationship between Newtonian gravity and general relativity.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the observable universe is expanding due to unseen matter surrounding it, influencing the motion of galaxies through gravitational fields.
  • Others challenge this idea by referencing the property of a uniform spherical shell of matter, which exerts a net gravitational force of zero on objects within it, questioning how such outside matter could create an outward force on the inside matter.
  • A participant asserts that while Newtonian gravity supports the idea of zero net force, it remains unclear if this holds in an expanding universe governed by general relativity.
  • Some participants express skepticism about whether the area outside the observable universe adheres to general relativity, raising questions about the nature of this unseen matter.
  • There is a suggestion that the distribution of outside matter could be influenced by where matter might agglomerate in multiverses, acknowledging the difficulty in detecting dark matter beyond our observable limits.
  • One participant emphasizes that the observable universe's expansion could imply that the universe itself is not expanding, but rather that the observable portion is increasing, leading to questions about the finite nature of the universe's expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the influence of unseen matter on the observable universe and the applicability of Newtonian gravity in the context of general relativity. The discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the implications of these ideas.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the gravitational effects of unseen matter and the assumptions regarding the nature of the universe beyond the observable limits. The discussion reflects uncertainty about the relationship between Newtonian and relativistic frameworks in cosmology.

darkside00
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A very simple way to explain the observable universe expanding:
Perhaps there is just a bunch of matter surrounding the observable universe and all the observable stars/galaxies are moving per the gravitational field created by matter outside that we have not yet seen. Thoughts?
 
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A uniform spherical shell of matter exerts a net gravitational force of zero on any object inside it:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=121120

Considering that, how would you distribute your "outside" matter so as to produce a net outward force on all the "inside" matter?
 
The outside matter could be distributed to pull the star/galaxies away as we see it. Just cause we haven't seen all matter yet, we can't get zero
 
jtbell said:
A uniform spherical shell of matter exerts a net gravitational force of zero on any object inside it:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=121120

Considering that, how would you distribute your "outside" matter so as to produce a net outward force on all the "inside" matter?

It's clear this is true of Newtonian gravity. Is it clear that this still holds in an expanding universe that obeys general relativity?
 
Is it clear that this still holds in an expanding universe that obeys general relativity?
Yes, that's proven.
 
phyzguy said:
It's clear this is true of Newtonian gravity. Is it clear that this still holds in an expanding universe that obeys general relativity?
Ich said:
Yes, that's proven.

On the other hand, how do we know that the area outside the observable universe obeys general relativity?
 
On the other hand, how do we know that the area outside the observable universe obeys general relativity?
That was not the question.
 
yeah, the question is does this outside matter affect our universe(if it exists without us seeing), off course it does
 
Or are we certain we've seen all matter? to make the net zero.
perhaps matter outside 'not our observable" is moving opposite direction
 
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  • #10
Er, no. jtbell already explained why this does not work. Furthermore, we see distant galaxies [the ones receeding the 'fastest'] as they were billions of years ago, so it us, not them, that is closest to this hypothetical unseen matter surrounding the observable universe. Apparently no one notified the Andromeda galaxy because it is on a collision course with the Milky Way.
 
  • #11
Could the outside matter's distribution be determined by where matter would most likely agglomerate in multiverses? I assume we have not seen all matter since any dark matter outside our line of sight to another observable galaxy/object would be difficult to detect.
 
  • #12
darkside00 said:
A very simple way to explain the observable universe expanding:
Perhaps there is just a bunch of matter surrounding the observable universe and all the observable stars/galaxies are moving per the gravitational field created by matter outside that we have not yet seen. Thoughts?

but if there is already matter outside the observable universe that means tha the Universe is not expanding only the amount of the Universe we can actually see is increasing. also does that mean that there is a finite point to which te Universe can expand??
 

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