Did bottles of wine truly get recovered from the wreck of the Titanic?

[willym]

TL;DR Summary

Could they survive the pressure at a depth of 3.8km?

Hi,

Did bottles of wine truly get recovered from the wreck of the Titanic?
This came up in a recent conversation and my conclusion was that the corks would get pushed in and the bottles would get mixed with seawater.

Some math:
The Titanic sits at depth of about 3,800 m.
The pressue at this depth is about 5555 psi (http://www.calctool.org/CALC/other/games/depth_press).

Assumptions/considerations:
- The compressive/crushing strength of glass is well above 5555 psi
- There is some thermal expansion of the cork at colder temperatures which would make it (insignificantly?) more difficult to remove
- There is sufficient air space between the cork and the wine to allow the cork to be pushed in (I've been desperate enough to open wine this way before)

If the cork is pushed in from external pressure and the wine mixed or replaced (diffusion over a long period of time?) with seawater, the pressure inside and outside of the glass bottle would equalize and all of the forces should act normal to the glass surface. The bottle itself should survive unless there are structural defects.

What do you guys thinks?

Cheers,
William

 

[sophiecentaur]

There is always some air in the top of a wine bottle and the cork would be pushed in by the external pressure and the air would all be dissolved. The question, imo, would be how the volume of the cork compares with the air in the bottle and your experience suggests the answer to that so seawater would get in. We would assume that the cork would have been well soaked so it could have the same modulus as water.
PS the depth 3,6800 metres not km. just a typo?

 

[willym]

There is always some air in the top of a wine bottle and the cork would be pushed in by the external pressure and the air would all be dissolved. The question, imo, would be how the volume of the cork compares with the air in the bottle and your experience suggests the answer to that so seawater would get in. We would assume that the cork would have been well soaked so it could have the same modulus as water.
PS the depth 3,6800 metres not km. just a typo?

Typo and fixed, thanks!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Did bottles of wine truly get recovered from the wreck of the Titanic?

Is this some sort of conspiracy theory? If so, it extends far beyond the RMS Titanic. Multiple shipwrecks have been discovered with wine bottles. In some cases, nasty, nasty wine bottles.

 

[willym]

Is this some sort of conspiracy theory? If so, it extends far beyond the RMS Titanic. Multiple shipwrecks have been discovered with wine bottles. In some cases, nasty, nasty wine bottles.

Oh no... am I now a conspiracy theorist?! The depth of the wreck is very important.

The following recovery was from 50 m and was champagne (mushroom cork shape):
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/champagne-shipwreck-170-year-old_n_7117600

 

[Vanadium 50]

Your question is "could they survive?" but pretty obviously they did survive.

So is your position that these are fakes? And if they are fakes, are all such bottles fakes? How deep does this go? (No pun intended...mostly)

If you look at a champagne cork, you will see it is not cylindrical - it's shaped like a mushroom. There's also a wire cage called a muselet in French (don't know the English word, if there even is one) around it. So external pressure tightens the seal, rather than vice versa. The pressure is large, but glass is quite strong compressively: further, as the bottle contracts, the pressure inside the bottle will increase.

 

[Nugatory]

First step should be a back-of-the-envelope calculation like @willym suggested in thefirst post: The surface area of the cork is a few square centimers, so 5500 psi means something on the order of 1000 pounds pushing the cork in. Pushing the cork in will reduce the headspace and increase the pressure, but that's going to be good for a factor of two at the most... so if I apply 500 pounds or so to the cork, is that enough to force it into the bottle? Surely it is? because I can pull the cork out with a corkscrew and that's just not giving me that much mechanical advantage.

I'm almost curious enough fill an empty wine bottle with water, take it down into my basement shop where I have a hydraulic press that will easily do that... but so far I'm resisting the temptation.

There's no doubt that wine bottles (straight cork and the mushroom corks that should be much more pressure-resistant) have been recovered from shipwrecks. Although bottles specifically attributed to the Titanic have been reported, Google does not leave me with a warm and fuzzy feeling about their provenance, nor is the cork style clear.

 

[sophiecentaur]

If you look at a champagne cork, you will see it is not cylindrical - it's shaped like a mushroom.

Cork is chosen because it's not very strong. Pushing the 'wrong end' of a champagne bottle would be no trouble but perhaps the cork would not need to be pushed in, sea water would probably just force itself through the cork.
I wonder if the bottles had had polypropylene 'corks' the same would have happened.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

Years ago I watched as a diving crew opened several bottles of wine found on a ship sunk 400 years earlier. The crew/divers ate fresh fish and 400 year old vino they said tasted great. They were a French crew/divers so I assume they understood good wine from bad. It was not nearly as deep as the Titanic but 400 years is a very long time. At the deeper distance, maybe a problem bringing them to the surface...but worth a try.

 

[sophiecentaur]

“At the deeper distance, maybe a problem bringing them to the surface...but worth a try.”
The problem with immersion is on the way down. It’s not like Nitrogen Narcosis, where Nitrogen is delivered to the blood at ambient pressure and there is no limit to how much is available. If the cork isn’t pushed into the bottle quickly then nothing will get to the wine over the years (apart from by diffusion). As soon as the pressure is released, you are back to the original situation. But could that happen at a few km of depth?

 

[James Demers]

Depth is everything. In a shallow wreck, the fact that the bottle is underwater won't matter at all. If a good cork can keep oxygen from diffusing in, it can certainly keep water from diffusing in.
Go deep enough, and the cork will be pushed in. How far depends on how large the air space is.
At some point the cork itself is going to get crushed, the seal will be lost, and the wine will diffuse away.

 

[Charlie Cheap]

I was not thinking of Nitrogen Narcosis in a divers blood, but the drastic change in pressure. The Titanic sank in 1912 or 15...I forget...I was young then. I make wine and have had bottles pop corks due to fermenting after being bottled. A little sorbate attention and that is cured, but I have no idea about deep storage in cold salt water. It is an interesting problem though.

 

[gary350]

Wine that old will be worthless.

 

[sophiecentaur]

worthless

This link suggests otherwise. (It could still taste rubbish though.)

 

[pinball1970]

Wine that old will be worthless.

Some wines are still bought and sold that were first on sale from 18th and even 17th centuries. Drinkable wine? There was one from 1824 (a quick Google) I imagine the maiden voyage of the largest most luxurious liner of its time would had have some absolute corkers in 1st class.
A 1912 Semper Vieil Armagnac or a Piercel Grande fine champagne are still on sale now.

 

[gary350]

I have been a wine maker for 51 years. As wine ages it gets better and better to a point then it looses its flavor. Very old wine might be ok to drink but sometimes it can taste very bad. There is no way to know if the cork leaked air oxygen will make wine oxidize and taste like vinegar. If wine gets hot it takes on a flavor like cooked cabbage. A very old bottle of wine can be a collectors item and sell for big money, most collectors never intend to drink the wine.

 

[BWV]

Also not every varietal ages well - zinfandels for example

 

[pinball1970]

I have been a wine maker for 51 years. As wine ages it gets better and better to a point then it looses its flavor. Very old wine might be ok to drink but sometimes it can taste very bad. There is no way to know if the cork leaked air oxygen will make wine oxidize and taste like vinegar. If wine gets hot it takes on a flavor like cooked cabbage. A very old bottle of wine can be a collectors item and sell for big money, most collectors never intend to drink the wine.

It's very cold at the bottom of the Atlantic so not much issue with heat. Available O2 is very low at those depths too.

 

[pinball1970]

I have been a wine maker for 51 years. As wine ages it gets better and better to a point then it looses its flavor. Very old wine might be ok to drink but sometimes it can taste very bad. There is no way to know if the cork leaked air oxygen will make wine oxidize and taste like vinegar. If wine gets hot it takes on a flavor like cooked cabbage. A very old bottle of wine can be a collectors item and sell for big money, most collectors never intend to drink the wine.

What about this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7954876.stm

 

[BWV]

There is an unopened bottle found in the grave of a Roman Legionnaire
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/07/20/bottle-of-wine/

 

[pinball1970]

There is an unopened bottle found in the grave of a Roman Legionnaire
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2018/07/20/bottle-of-wine/

Probably best skip that one, I imagine there is a good chance it is corked

 

[James Demers]

Probably best skip that one, I imagine there is a good chance it is corked

Cork taint is the result of trichlorophenol (an antifungal compound) used in wood treatment. You can be pretty sure that the ancient Romans didn't use it.
There's a better chance that the wine is loaded with lead acetate, which the Romans did use to sweeten their wine. You're right that it's probably a good idea to pass on it.

 

[Steelwolf]

The first winemakers used ceramic amphorae with seals. The clay jars were actually sealed with ceramic lid for the amphora that was sealed in with wax. They had to store wines well sealed long before glass bottles and cork production came about. And if I remember right, Jacques Cousteau had a specific Phoenician wreck they would visit, them knowing the location only, where the wine was still good and they would bring up one or two amphorae at a time. From what I gather it was a very sweet and highly spiced red wine, both of which likely helped lead to it's preservation. I do know that it was not a super deep wreck and that they kept the location secret for a long time. They also found a case of British Ale from 1700's and another set of Greek Amphorae that they decanted and drank on deck (an on film) and called it 'OK but not Great'.

 

[sophiecentaur]

sealed in with wax

Wax will flow under moderate pressure. The amphorae would need to have been filled to the top with wine to avoid any movement due to the air being compressed. Which makes me wonder why wine bottles have a space at the top; they then have to be stored on their sides to keep the corks wet / swollen. I suspect that cork was originally chosen as a cheap material, before good wines were developed.

 

[Nugatory]

Which makes me wonder why wine bottles have a space at the top;

How would you press the cork into place without that air space? The space also allows for a bit of thermal expansion/contraction with temperature changes.

 

[sassyinpink]

Depth is everything. In a shallow wreck, the fact that the bottle is underwater won't matter at all. If a good cork can keep oxygen from diffusing in, it can certainly keep water from diffusing in.
Go deep enough, and the cork will be pushed in. How far depends on how large the air space is.
At some point the cork itself is going to get crushed, the seal will be lost, and the wine will diffuse away.

this is probably the best sensible answer. after so many years, surely the pressure will crush any cork.

 

[sassyinpink]

I have been a wine maker for 51 years. As wine ages it gets better and better to a point then it looses its flavor. Very old wine might be ok to drink but sometimes it can taste very bad. There is no way to know if the cork leaked air oxygen will make wine oxidize and taste like vinegar. If wine gets hot it takes on a flavor like cooked cabbage. A very old bottle of wine can be a collectors item and sell for big money, most collectors never intend to drink the wine.

interesting! if they pay and collect the wine, why would they not drink it?
Is it displayed as a sign of wealth?

 

[sophiecentaur]

interesting! if they pay and collect the wine, why would they not drink it?
Is it displayed as a sign of wealth?

It's often a good investment. A good knowledge of the subject can earn you loads of money - at the expense of the 'punters'. (Same as with paintings and antiques)