Do Rear-Axle Chariots Have a Tighter Turning Circle Than Center-Axle Chariots?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the turning capabilities of rear-axle versus center-axle chariots from the Near Eastern Late Bronze Age, specifically focusing on whether the rear-axle configuration allows for a tighter turning circle compared to the center-axle configuration. Participants explore the implications of axle placement and crew weight distribution on turning dynamics, assuming equal wheel track, axle length, and total vehicle length.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the Egyptian chariot with a rear axle has a tighter turning circle due to the weight distribution being in front of the axle.
  • Others, including @Baluncore, argue that the turning dynamics suggest the opposite, stating that a horse stepping sideways rotates the chariot around the center of the axle, implying that a closer axle results in a tighter turning circle.
  • One participant requests visual references to better understand the design differences between the two chariot types.
  • Another participant notes that any chariot can be turned in its own length, emphasizing that the position of the wheels affects the overall length of the vehicle during turns.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between axle placement and turning circle tightness, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Assumptions about equal dimensions among the chariots are made, but the implications of these assumptions on the discussion are not fully explored. The technical details regarding the mechanics of turning are also not definitively established.

Ghost Writer
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Hi all -

In the Near Eastern Late Bronze Age the Egyptians employed a two-man chariot with the axle placed at the rear of the vehicle; whereas the Hittites employed a three-man chariot with the axle placed in the center of the vehicle. As a result, the weight of the two-man crew in the Egyptian vehicle was in front of the axle whereas the weight of the three-man crew was directly over the axle. Several scholars assert that the Egyptian chariot with its rear-axle placement had a tighter turning circle than the Hittite chariot with it center-axle placement. My questions are: Is this in fact true? And if it is true, why is it true? Which is to say, what is the scientific explanation as to why a rear-axle configuration with crew weight distributed forward of the axle results in a tighter turning circle than a center-axle configuration with crew weight distributed over the axle? In asking these asking let us assume that wheel track and axle length as well as the total vehicle length (including horses) are equal for both chariots.

Thanks in advance to anyone providing answers to these questions.
 
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Welcome to PF.
A horse that steps sideways will rotate the chariot about the centre of the axle.
The closer the axle is to the horse, the tighter the possible turning circle.
That suggests the opposite of what you claim several scholars assert.
Have you got it backwards?
 
I agree with @Baluncore -- Do you have pictures or drawings of the two different designs, including the harnesses to the horse(s)?

EDIT -- Maybe like these two images?

https://www-tc.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/assets/img/full-size/pharaoh-chariot-merl.jpg
pharaoh-chariot-merl.jpg


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4e/55/9f/4e559fa64a60e5ca6b1c024ddf831078.jpg
4e559fa64a60e5ca6b1c024ddf831078.jpg
 

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Unlike a vehicle with limited front wheel steering, a horse can walk sideways, and backwards at the same time, if needed. Any chariot can therefore be turned in it's own length. If the wheels are at the rear they must be included in the length.
The length of the combination is the diagonal from one shoulder of the horse to the diagonally opposite rearmost point of the chariot or wheel.
 

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