Do things happen the way they can?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether events in nature occur in a manner that is determined by the constraints of their environment, particularly in relation to physical laws such as diffusion, gravity, and the speed of light. Participants explore the implications of this idea across different scales, from subatomic particles to biological evolution.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant reflects on the law of diffusion, suggesting that it is a statistical phenomenon where particles migrate from areas of higher to lower concentration due to varying resistance, proposing that "things happen the way they can."
  • Another participant asserts that the laws of physics model how systems interact and that the mathematical relationships are what define these interactions, implying that the language used is secondary.
  • A different viewpoint suggests that while non-biological systems follow the principle of "things happen the way they can," biological systems also experience selection pressures that eliminate non-viable paths.
  • One participant emphasizes that even non-viable evolutionary paths have significant consequences for species differentiation, indicating a complex interplay between chance and necessity in evolution.
  • There is a request for clarification on whether the "things happen the way they can" model applies to fundamental physical phenomena like gravity and the speed of light.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the notion that events occur based on the constraints of their environment, but there is no consensus on how this concept applies to fundamental physical laws or the implications for biological evolution. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the applicability of this model to basic physical phenomena.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of understanding of physics, and there are references to both statistical phenomena and evolutionary biology, indicating a blend of perspectives that may not fully align with established scientific principles.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in the philosophical implications of physical laws, the relationship between statistical phenomena and natural laws, and the intersection of physics and biology may find this discussion relevant.

dayalanand roy
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In my schooldays, I read the law of diffusion. It stated that the particles of a solute migrate from the region of higher concentration to the region of lower concentration in a solution. I accepted it as a universal law without ever wondering why it happens so. After many years only, I came to know that it is simply a statistical phenomenon- particles of all the regions tend to randomly migrate in all possible directions, but the particles in the region of lower concentration have to face more resistance from the ones in the region of higher concentration, while the latter face less resistance from the former and hence succeed in migrating from the region of higher concentration to that of lower concentration. This suggests me of a simple principle- that things just happen the way they can, or the way they are allowed to- and the way they happen becomes a law. But as I am not a physicist, I do not know if there could be any truth in it.
Here I also want to draw the attention of friends to a related analogy. When matter (and fields) starts its journey in the universe (that is, when they are in the process of forming sub-atomic particles or atoms), there are very less things and they have very limited opportunity to interact, hence physical laws are very strict- there is little chance of variation. After reaching atomic or molecular stages, they get more avenues to interact. This is why, probably, there is a little more liberty in chemistry- one element with different valences and the same elements making different molecules. And when they reach the level of macromolecules or bio-molecules- proteins and nucleic acids, they have much more opportunities to interact, and mutate also, and probably this is why we see so many variations in living beings.
I am quite ignorant of physics. I shall be grateful to my learned colleagues if they could guide me whether my intuition- things happen the way they can- may be operating behind other laws of nature, like gravity etc.
 

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"The way they can" is what the "laws" of physics models. The laws define how systems interact and the math predicts how a defined system evolves. The words we use to describe these mathematical relationships are irrelevant.
 
I think your general sense of "things happen the way they can and then we make laws to describe that behavior" is a good description of non-biological nature and the underpinnings of physics. For biology, they also happen the way they can but at the macro level some ways go nowhere (have no survival value) and die off.
 
jerromyjon said:
"The way they can" is what the "laws" of physics models. The laws define how systems interact and the math predicts how a defined system evolves. The words we use to describe these mathematical relationships are irrelevant.
Many thanks for this illuminating reply.
Dayalanand
 
phinds said:
I think your general sense of "things happen the way they can and then we make laws to describe that behavior" is a good description of non-biological nature and the underpinnings of physics. For biology, they also happen the way they can but at the macro level some ways go nowhere (have no survival value) and die off.
Many thanks for this illuminating reply.
Dayalanand
 
" ...but at the macro level some ways go nowhere (have no survival value) and die off."[/QUOTE]

Yes. But even the ways that go nowhere (have no survival value) have very important consequences in the living world. Were they not there, it would have been difficult to distinguish man from chimps and dogs from fox-there would have been an almost continuous gradation of species if all the intermediate species had survived.
Thanks and regards
Dayalanand
 
dayalanand roy said:
" ...but at the macro level some ways go nowhere (have no survival value) and die off."

Yes. But even the ways that go nowhere (have no survival value) have very important consequences in the living world. Were they not there, it would have been difficult to distinguish man from chimps and dogs from fox-there would have been an almost continuous gradation of species if all the intermediate species had survived.
Thanks and regards
Dayalanand[/QUOTE]
Good point. I agree. In fact, the ramifications would probably have been much more serious than just what you mention.
 
phinds said:
Yes. But even the ways that go nowhere (have no survival value) have very important consequences in the living world. Were they not there, it would have been difficult to distinguish man from chimps and dogs from fox-there would have been an almost continuous gradation of species if all the intermediate species had survived.
Thanks and regards
Dayalanand
Good point. I agree. In fact, the ramifications would probably have been much more serious than just what you mention.[/QUOTE]

Thanks
But I think we are deviating from the main point. It was aimed at micro level. I want to learn if 'things happen the way they can' model has any role to play in basic physical phenomena, like gravity or the speed of light. regards
dayalanand
 

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