Does it take work to hold an atom together?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around whether it takes physical work to hold an atom together, particularly in the context of atomic stability and the forces at play within an atom. Participants explore concepts related to the strong force, electromagnetic interactions, and the definition of work in physics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that no work is done in holding a stable atom together, referencing the definition of work as force times displacement.
  • Others argue that the dynamic behavior of protons, influenced by the strong force and electromagnetic force, suggests that work may be involved in maintaining their positions within the nucleus.
  • A participant emphasizes that the strong force is responsible for binding all hadrons, not just protons, and that the term "holds atom together" can have multiple interpretations.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of like charges repelling each other and whether work is necessary to counteract this repulsion within the atomic nucleus.
  • One participant notes that applied force does not necessarily imply work done unless it results in displacement, suggesting that the nucleus's stability indicates no net work is being performed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether work is required to hold an atom together, with no consensus reached on the matter. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing interpretations of the forces involved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of atomic interactions and the varying definitions of work, which depend on the context of the forces at play. There are unresolved questions regarding the nature of the forces and their implications for atomic stability.

Lucretius
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I was wondering if it took any physical work to hold an atom together. The reason I am asking is because someone had asked about the proposed Heat Death of the universe. My thought was that only elementary particles and radiation would exist because everything else would have broken up. The other person stated that atoms would still exist because it does not take work to hold them together. Is this true?
 
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No work is done in holding a stable atom together. Recall how work is defined.
 
W=Fd, but because there is no d, there is no work?
 
Yes. That is correct.
 
Hello,

I'm not sure that "d" is constant. The strongforce and electromagnetic force work against each other. Since the strongforce is caused by gluon exchange between protons the force-time response should look like a delta function. And if the electromagnetic interaction between the particles is continuous with time I would expect dynamic behavior for the protons. This implies that work is being done to hold the protons together. However, I'm not a particle physics person so don't take my explanation as gospel.

Best Regards

Modey3
 
i tihnk there is no d...so w=fd there is no work
 
Modey3 said:
Hello,

I'm not sure that "d" is constant. The strongforce and electromagnetic force work against each other. Since the strongforce is caused by gluon exchange between protons the force-time response should look like a delta function. And if the electromagnetic interaction between the particles is continuous with time I would expect dynamic behavior for the protons. This implies that work is being done to hold the protons together. However, I'm not a particle physics person so don't take my explanation as gospel.

Best Regards

Modey3

Be very careful here. First of all, gluons just doesn't hold "protons" together. Rather it is binding agent between all "hardrons", i.e. anything with quarks. This includes protons, neutrons, mesons, etc.

Secondly, "holds atom together" can mean way too many things. If it means making sure the electrons don't fly apart, then this can be as simple as electromagnetic intereaction (no strong force here), or as complicated as the inclusion of electroweak component.

As with many other questions here, until the OP produces a clearly explanation of the question, things are left in a fuzzy state.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
Be very careful here. First of all, gluons just doesn't hold "protons" together. Rather it is binding agent between all "hardrons", i.e. anything with quarks. This includes protons, neutrons, mesons, etc.

Secondly, "holds atom together" can mean way too many things. If it means making sure the electrons don't fly apart, then this can be as simple as electromagnetic intereaction (no strong force here), or as complicated as the inclusion of electroweak component.

As with many other questions here, until the OP produces a clearly explanation of the question, things are left in a fuzzy state.

Zz.

By doing work, I meant I thought it took work to hold two protons together in the atomic nucleus. Two like charges should repel, so at first I thought work was being done to hold them together and to negate the electromagnetic force which should cause the two protons to push apart.
 
Lucretius said:
By doing work, I meant I thought it took work to hold two protons together in the atomic nucleus. Two like charges should repel, so at first I thought work was being done to hold them together and to negate the electromagnetic force which should cause the two protons to push apart.

But the term "Work" has a clear definition. You do work when the force you apply causes a displacement. Now by simply knowing that the nucleus isn't moving on average (do you see your coffee cup moving when you apply no force to it?), you can immediately deduce the obvious.

Applied force doesn't imply work done. Only applied force that resulted in a net displacement in the direction of that force results in a work done. This is what is defined by "work".

To complete the explanation, you need to look up the "strong force", which is the force between nucleons that is the "glue".

Zz.
 

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