Does the Singularity Really Exist Beyond the Standard Model?

  • Context: High School 
  • Thread starter Thread starter wolram
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Singularity
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the existence and implications of singularities in physics, particularly in relation to the Standard Model and concepts such as wormholes. Participants explore the nature of singularities, their mathematical definitions, and their physical interpretations within the frameworks of relativity and quantum mechanics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that singularities may be artefacts of mathematical models, questioning their physical existence and proposing that they could lead to phenomena like wormholes.
  • Others argue that the term "singularity" is shorthand for situations where mathematical models fail, indicating a lack of understanding rather than a definitive physical state.
  • A viewpoint is presented that relativity is incomplete at the scale of singularities, implying that singularities may represent classical analogs of more complex quantum states.
  • One participant compares singularities to mathematical concepts like dividing by zero, suggesting that while they indicate a breakdown in models, they do not render the entire theory incomplete.
  • Examples from mathematics, such as step functions, are used to illustrate that singularities can exist in defined objects without necessarily indicating a "broken model." This raises questions about the continuity and applicability of models in real-world scenarios.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature and existence of singularities, with no consensus reached on whether they represent real physical entities or merely mathematical constructs. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of singularities and the unresolved relationship between classical and quantum theories in explaining these phenomena.

wolram
Gold Member
Dearly Missed
Messages
4,411
Reaction score
551
People keep saying that it is an artefact of the mass and the singularity does not exist, yet other theorists suggest they lead to worm holes, Do they exist or are they or are they (beyond the standard model)?
 
Astronomy news on Phys.org
A wormhole is a conceivable alternative to a singularity.
 
wolram said:
People keep saying that it is an artefact of the maths and the singularity does not exist, yet other theorists suggest they lead to worm holes, Do they exist or are they or are they (beyond the standard model)?
The word "singularity" is just shorthand so that physicists don't have to keep saying "the place where the math models break down and we don't know WHAT is/was going on". It does not imply that there is or is not something physical going on, it implies (states directly actually) that we don't KNOW what's going on.
 
phinds said:
The word "singularity" is just shorthand so that physicists don't have to keep saying "the place where the math models break down and we don't know WHAT is/was going on".

It doesn't even come from physics. The term "singularity" is used in mathematics for conditions where an object is not defined. But if this object has been used in physics and the singularity is not removable this means indeed that the corresponding mathematical model breaks down.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: stefan r
As far as I understand, Relativity, as a classical theory, is known to be woefully incomplete on the scale of the singularity. Quantum mechanics will have something to say about confining huge amounts of mass to small volumes and yet it does not inform the model of the classical singularity. So my perspective is that the singularity, as we currently envision it, is not a "real" object or state, but instead a classical analog of some more weirder quantum mechanical state.
 
fumbar said:
As far as I understand, Relativity, as a classical theory, is known to be woefully incomplete on the scale of the singularity...

The singularity is similar to dividing by 0. It does not make algebra or calculus "woefully incomplete". The theory could approach infinite accuracy and still have a singularity.

DrStupid said:
It doesn't even come from physics. The term "singularity" is used in mathematics for conditions where an object is not defined. But if this object has been used in physics and the singularity is not removable this means indeed that the corresponding mathematical model breaks down.

There are cases where an object is defined but still has a "singularity". For example a step function like y = x[round down]. The number 2 is defined but the limit as f(x) approaches 2 from the left is 1 but as f(x) approaches 2 from the right it is 2.

I would not say that a step function is a "broken model" it just is not continuous. A lot of real world work has this feature. Items or boxes are discrete units. Customers are upset if they get a fraction of an item delivered. Getting a package to the door after the truck leaves is a fail. Derivatives or rates are still very useful. A model will just be slightly off because the units are not really continuous but that is easy to anticipate.
 
stefan r said:
There are cases where an object is defined but still has a "singularity". For example a step function like y = x[round down]. The number 2 is defined but the limit as f(x) approaches 2 from the left is 1 but as f(x) approaches 2 from the right it is 2.

I would say that f'(x) has a singularity at x=2, but not f(x).
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 36 ·
2
Replies
36
Views
6K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 167 ·
6
Replies
167
Views
8K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
4K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K