Equation simplifies if a certain parameter is small

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the simplification of a differential equation under the condition that a parameter \( Q \) is much smaller than 1. Participants explore the implications of neglecting certain terms in the equation and the assumptions that lead to these simplifications.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a differential equation and questions why the second derivative can be neglected when \( Q \) is small, suggesting that \( 1/Q \) becomes large.
  • Another participant proposes that there may be hidden assumptions, such as the second derivative varying slowly or being of similar magnitude to the first derivative, which could justify its neglect.
  • A later reply clarifies that the original problem is abstract and not tied to a specific physical scenario, referencing a PDF for context.
  • One participant notes that neglecting the second derivative does not yield the expected equation, indicating that more is at play in the simplification process.
  • Another participant successfully derives the expected equation but emphasizes the need to understand why \( Q \) can be neglected compared to \( Q^2/RC \), suggesting an underlying assumption about the RC time being short.
  • There is a mention of the relationship between parameters and the conditions under which the approximations hold, specifically questioning the validity of assuming \( RC << Q << 1 \).

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the assumptions and conditions necessary for the simplification of the differential equation. There is no consensus on the validity of neglecting certain terms or the implications of the parameter relationships.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the assumptions made regarding the behavior of the derivatives and the conditions under which the simplifications are applied. The discussion remains focused on the mathematical and conceptual aspects without resolving the underlying uncertainties.

Derivator
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Hi folks,

I have a differential equation which looks like

[tex]sin(f) + \frac{1}{Q}\frac{d(f)}{dt} + \frac{d^2(f)}{d t^2} = g(t)[/tex]

Now for Q << 1 this should, according to our lecture, simplify to

[tex]sin(f) + \frac{1}{Q}\frac{d(f)}{dt}}{d t^2} = g(t)[/tex]

Why that?

I mean, obviously for Q<<1, 1/Q >> 1. But why do we negelct only [tex]\frac{d^2(f)}{d t^2}[/tex]?derivator
 
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Unfortunately I cannot see the attachment, I suspect that you forgot to delete a dt².
Probably there is some other hidden assumption somewhere, like d²f/dt² varying slowly, or df/dt and d²f/dt² being of similar magnitude, such that the second derivative can be neglected.

I am also a bit puzzled why the sine term should not be neglected as well. Possibly because the equation can be solved exactly with it, perhaps because df/dt is also quite large and the quickly oscillating sine gives a non-trivial contribution?
 
I deleted the attachement, since I tried to post a more abstract case, which isn't related to any physical problem.

The original problem can be found in the following screenshot:

attachment.php?attachmentid=29791&stc=1&d=1289499107.png

(please not: not eqn 2.6 should reduce to 2.8. in fact, 2.7 should reduce to 2.8 )

which is from page 13 of this pdf-file: http://www.weizmann.ac.il/condmat/superc/theses_files/8.pdf
 

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If I throw away the second derivative and solve for the first derivative, I don't get equation (2.8).
So it seems like something more is going on here.
Unfortunately I'll have to go out for an hour or so, but I will take a better look when I get back and see if I can understand what's going on here on a purely mathematical basis.
 
I now got equation (2.8), initially I missed that they switched back to a t-derivative rather than [itex]\tau[/itex]-derivative.
Indeed the only approximation they make is ignoring the [tex]\frac{d^2\gamma}{d\tau^2}[/tex]

Let's follow through with the second derivative intact: we start from
[tex]\frac{d^2\gamma}{d\tau^2} + \frac{1}{Q} \frac{d\gamma}{d\tau} + \sin\gamma = \frac{I}{I_0}[/tex]
Since [itex]\tau = Q \frac{t}{RC}[/itex],
[tex]\frac{d\gamma}{d\tau} = \frac{d\gamma}{dt} \frac{dt}{d\tau} = \frac{RC}{Q} \frac{d\gamma}{dt}[/tex]
and
[tex]\frac{d^2\gamma}{d\tau} = \left(\frac{RC}{Q}\right)^2 \frac{d^2\gamma}{dt^2}.[/tex]

The equation thus becomes
[tex]\left( \frac{RC}{Q} \right)^2 \frac{d^2\gamma}{dt^2} + \frac{RC}{Q^2} \frac{d\gamma}{dt} = \frac{I}{I_0} - \sin\gamma.[/tex]
Isolating the first derivative,
[tex]\frac{d\gamma}{dt} = \frac{Q^2}{R C} \left( \frac{I}{I_0} - \sin\gamma \right) - Q \frac{d^2\gamma}{dt^2}.[/tex]

So the question is basically: why can we neglect Q with respect to Q²/RC?
In other words, why is
[tex]\sqrt{\frac{2eI_0}{\hbar C}} R C \ll \frac{2eI_0}{\hbar C} (RC)^2 / RC[/tex]
That is,
[tex]1 \ll \sqrt{\frac{2eI_0}{\hbar C}}[/tex]
So apparently, there is the silent assumption that the RC time is very short here, i.e. RC << Q << 1.

How sensible this is I cannot tell you, I can do the math but I don't know much about Josephson junctions.
 

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