Exploring Proton Decay and HyperKamiokande Experiments

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around proton decay and the HyperKamiokande experiments, focusing on the current status of proton decay research, the implications of past accidents on data collection, and the engineering challenges associated with building larger detectors. Participants express curiosity about the timeline for new results, the growth of lifetime bounds, and the potential for future discoveries in particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire about the timeline for new proton decay results from the Kamiokande collaboration, noting that the last updates were in 2009.
  • There is a question regarding how quickly the lifetime bounds for proton decay are expected to grow and when the next order of magnitude might be reached.
  • Concerns are raised about whether past accidents have affected the integrity of previously collected data, particularly regarding the specifications of new photomultipliers.
  • Some participants wonder if proton decay data can still be obtained while running other neutrino experiments, especially collider experiments, and whether Cherenkov radiation impacts the data's usefulness.
  • There are discussions about potential improvements to proton decay bounds beyond simply waiting for larger detectors like HyperKamiokande to be built.
  • Participants express awareness of budgetary constraints affecting the HyperKamiokande project and question the extraordinary engineering challenges involved in scaling up the existing experiment.
  • Some participants seek updates on the current status and concrete plans for the HyperKamiokande project, including its expected impact on proton lifetime bounds.
  • There is a mention of the Kamiokande observatory being the only active proton decay experiment currently.
  • Questions arise about the costs of photomultipliers and whether they remain consistent with past prices.
  • One participant speculates about the significance of discovering proton decay compared to the Higgs boson, suggesting it would be a more exciting discovery.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views regarding the timeline and feasibility of proton decay research, with no clear consensus on the impact of past accidents or the effectiveness of current and future experiments. Multiple competing perspectives on the significance of proton decay versus other discoveries, like the Higgs boson, are also present.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations related to the assumptions about data integrity and the engineering challenges of scaling experiments. There are unresolved questions about the timeline for HyperKamiokande construction and the specific impacts of past accidents on data collection.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to researchers and students in particle physics, particularly those focused on proton decay, neutrino experiments, and the engineering aspects of large-scale detectors.

murray92
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I am not quite sure wheather this is the appropriate section. (since the question is about an experiment).

I wondered about the following
-when the Kamiokande-colaboration is going to release new results on proton decay bounds- since their last new bounds where in 2009 (Judging from their website)
-How "fast" does the lifetime bound grow. i.e. when will we reach the next order of magnitude.
-Do the accindent(s) have a corruption effect on the date already collected (i.e. bc. the new photomultiplier have different specifications or something like that?)
- Can you still get data for proton decay if you run all those neutrino experiments?!
( I mean the Collider ones- obviously you can't do anyting about background)
( or does the cherenkov radiation render the time useless for for whatever reason I can't think of.)
- Can anything be done to improve the bounds (appart from waiting and building a larger detector like hyperkamiokande)



There have been some proposals of a larger detector to be called HyperKamiokande
- I am aware of the bugetary constrains imposed on particle physics in recent years in Japan- How do they affect the Hyperkamiokande experiment?
-Are there any "extraordinary" engineering challenges.
- (What I mean to ask is whether we can just "scale up" the existing experiment or if new
techniques are required.
- What's the current status of the project?
- Are there concrete plans.
- And how fast would Hyperkamiokande improve the Proton lifetime bounds.

Oh and a last one
Kamiokande observatory is the only active proton-decay experiment-right?

Are Photomultiplier Costs still roughly the same as some years ago when the accident happened (the quoted at 3000$)?
http://neutrino.kek.jp/jhfnu/workshop2/ohp/shiozawa.pdf
 
Last edited:
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murray92 said:
I am not quite sure wheather this is the appropriate section. (since the question is about an experiment).

I wondered about the following
-when the Kamiokande-colaboration is going to release new results on proton decay bounds- since their last new bounds where in 2009 (Judging from their website)
-How "fast" does the lifetime bound grow. i.e. when will we reach the next order of magnitude.
-Do the accindent(s) have a corruption effect on the date already collected (i.e. bc. the new photomultiplier have different specifications or something like that?)
- Can you still get data for proton decay if you run all those neutrino experiments?!
( I mean the Collider ones- obviously you can't do anyting about background)
( or does the cherenkov radiation render the time useless for for whatever reason I can't think of.)
- Can anything be done to improve the bounds (appart from waiting and building a larger detector like hyperkamiokande)



There have been some proposals of a larger detector to be called HyperKamiokande
- I am aware of the bugetary constrains imposed on particle physics in recent years in Japan- How do they affect the Hyperkamiokande experiment?
-Are there any "extraordinary" engineering challenges.
- (What I mean to ask is whether we can just "scale up" the existing experiment or if new
techniques are required.
- What's the current status of the project?
- Are there concrete plans.
- And how fast would Hyperkamiokande improve the Proton lifetime bounds.

Oh and a last one
Kamiokande observatory is the only active proton-decay experiment-right?

Are Photomultiplier Costs still roughly the same as some years ago when the accident happened (the quoted at 3000$)?
http://neutrino.kek.jp/jhfnu/workshop2/ohp/shiozawa.pdf

maybr no decay, no at least like higgs boson.
like magnetic monopoles, well no magnetic monoploes observed to the moment, x bosons ?
positron mode decay ? maybe.


.


.
 


Of coures but several GUT's give livetimes about 10^36 years (or no decay).
Anyway discovering decay would probably be the most exiting discovery in a long time (much more than a vanilla standard model higgs).
But "eating up" the parameter space is also enomrmous progress- And I wondered how long it will take.
Oh and in the presentation above it is mentioned that construction oh HyperK should have started in 2011 acording to some plans from 2002. Any news on that?
 
murray92 said:
How "fast" does the lifetime bound grow. i.e. when will we reach the next order of magnitude.

Not very fast, at least not without new apparatus. Check out slide 32 in
http://www-conf.slac.stanford.edu/icfa2008/kearns081028.pdf

The plot there shows the SuperK proton lifetime sensitivity hitting 10^34 years around 2007, and 2x10^34 around 2017. The 2009 press release you mention on their http://www-sk.icrr.u-tokyo.ac.jp/whatsnew/new-20091125-e.html says that it actually took data through 2008 to reach 10^34.

Slide 34 in the ICFA pdf claims that a plausible schedule for future detectors (perhaps at DUSEL?) might reach 10^35 around 2035. I guess the bottom line is: don't hold your breath.

Right now SuperK is focusing on neutrino oscillations, but their neutrino source was damaged in the earthquake.
http://physics.aps.org/articles/v4/57
 


Thanks for all the info- I really appreciate it.
So it seems we need a new detector and 20 mton years to even reach 10^35,
well that's bad news...

I found a presentation from 2002 which gave 2011 as the planed start date for HyperK Construction any news on this? or an updated shelude?
 


murray92 said:
I found a presentation from 2002 which gave 2011 as the planed start date for HyperK Construction any news on this? or an updated shelude?

This 45MB pdf is the most recent information I was able to find about HyperK, from the 2010 International Workshop on Next generation Nucleon Decay and Neutrino Detectors (NNN10) last December, which estimates construction from 2014 until 2019.

There may be updates at NNN11 coming up this November, or possibly this year's ICFA seminar in October. (ICFA is only held once every three years; the slides I linked to in my previous post were presented at the previous ICFA seminar in 2008.)

There are also other options being explored in Europe and North America. Of these, I'm most familiar with DUSEL, where proposals are in the air for either an 0.5MTon water Cherenkov detector, or a ~100kTon liquid argon detector. (There are a lot of slides about this in Ed Kearns's ICFA2008 presentation I linked to in my previous post.)
 


murray92 said:
Anyway discovering decay would probably be the most exiting discovery in a long time (much more than a vanilla standard model higgs).


...lol... a vanilla higgs ...lol...
best yet

...the tutti frutti higgs

------------
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2011/08/hints-of-higgs-boson-appear-weaker.html?ref=hp
..."And at the rate the two experiments are collecting data, working together they should be able to spot the particle or rule it out by year's end. "If the Higgs exists, is has to be there," Sharma says. "And if it's not there, it will be known to be science-fiction by December"...



.
 
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