Finite Modules and Surjective Endomorphisms: An Elementary Exploration

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of finite modules and surjective endomorphisms, particularly in the context of commutative rings with identity. Participants explore the implications of these properties, challenge terminology, and seek examples that illustrate the relationships between injectivity and surjectivity in finite modules.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether a surjective endomorphism of a finite R-module can be non-injective, proposing that such a scenario does not exist.
  • Another participant clarifies the distinction between "finite" and "finitely generated" Z-modules, suggesting that Z is not a finite Z-module.
  • There is a discussion about the terminology used in algebra, with some participants noting that "finite" has specific meanings that can lead to confusion.
  • A participant proposes a case involving a non-zero ideal in a commutative ring to illustrate that R/I is never isomorphic to R as an R-module.
  • One participant humorously reflects on the potential confusion their terminology might cause in teaching, suggesting that their use of "finite" could lead to paradoxical problems.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the terminology of finite versus finitely generated modules, indicating a lack of consensus on the definitions and implications of these terms. The discussion on the existence of surjective but non-injective endomorphisms remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the ambiguity in the terminology surrounding finite modules and finitely generated modules, as well as the implications of these terms in various contexts. There is also an acknowledgment of the potential for confusion in teaching and understanding these concepts.

mathwonk
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In the spirit of challenges, here is a surprizingly simple question about finite modules, that I did not know the answer to until recently. It is so elementary that I suspect it was common knowledge to the ancients and only forgotten as algebra became more sophisticated.


We all know that finitely generated modules mimic many properties of finite sets. E.g. a self map of a finite set is bijective if and only if surjective, if and only if injective.

Similarly, an endomorphism of a finite vector space is an isomorphism if and only if injective if and only if surjective.

But what if the ring is not a field, but just a commutative ring with identity? Then e.g. multiplication by 3 is an injective endomorphism of Z, a finite Z-module, but it is neither surjective nor injective?


can you find an example in the other direction? i.e. can you find a surjective endomorphism of a finite R module which is not injective?

I claim not. There is an abstract proof for modules which are "noetherian" i.e. not only finitely generated, but in which also every submodule is finitely generated.

Namely such modules cannot have a strictly increasing infinite sequence of submodules. But the sequence of kernels of iterates of a surjective endomorphism cannot terminate unless they are all zero.


But there is a simpler more elementary proof for al finite modules, without assuming noetherian. can you find it?:smile:

notice this implies that if two finite R modules are isomorphic, then every surjective homomorphism between them is an isomorphism! Isn't that amazing?

Hence if you mod out any finite R module by a non trivial submodule, what you get is never isomorphic to the original module. or if you have two properly nested submodules of a finite free module, the two quotients are never isomorphic.

in particular a non trivial quotient of a free module is never free on the same number of generators. thus the rank is well defined.

again, in any free rank n module, n generators are always independent, but n independent elements may not generate.
 
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I wouldn't say Z is a finite Z module, merely a finitely generated Z module. I think the distinction is important and one you have glossed over by using both terms interchangably.
 
i thought those were synonyms. i mean finitely generated if they are not.

i thought the only time one distinguished thoise terms was when one is discussing algebras, where finitely generated is weaker than finite, i.e. then finitely generated means as an algebra and finite emans as a module.

but for modules i know of no other concept called finite except finitely generated. what am i forgetting?

in particular why is Z not a finite Z module?


oHH! of course!~ the super naive, obvious meaning of finite, is duhhh... a finite set which is a module!

of course i do not mean that. so let's say finitely generated.

Oddly, the terminology of "finite A- modules" has been standard for over 40 years, as in Lang algebra, e.g., and even in Atiyah - MacDonald in the case of "finite A algebras". but I see how it could easily confuse someone.

More recently Eisenbud avoids it for modules but also uses it for algebras as do A-M, where of course it is just as double edged.

amazing as it seems, i have never before noticed that this terminology might be confusing, and no one has ever objected to it before.

perhaps as an algebraic geometer i am too used to special meanings of finite, like morphisms induced by ring maps which are integral extensions, i.e. module finite ring maps.:-p
 
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try case one, if R is a commutative ring with 1, and I a non zero ideal, then R/I is never isomorphic to R as R module.


then try to go to R+R.
 
Matt, I think I should stick to my original terminology. Then I could pose problems for my class like: "find an example of a finite module which is not finite."

and then also "prove every finite module is finite." Funny I never thought of that. Maybe that's why some people find my lectures confusing.
 

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