Freewill = Macro Quantum Mechanics?

[Noja888]

Hello Everyone! - Got an idea here...

I have been trying to come up with ideas on how quantum mechanics may manifest into our 'level/scale' of reality.

Lets take a look at a basic characteristic of QM. When performing a measurement we do not know what the result will be until we measure it. However there are probabilities involved to make predictions of what the the result may be.

Now take freewill. We do not know the choice we will make until its made (performing a measurement) but we can come to a probable prediction based on what our life experiences consist of (probabilities).

Are we beings where our consciousness operates on a 'Macro QM' level? Would a different set of laws/rules would apply because of the very large scale difference from normal QM?

 

[Upisoft]

If freewill = QM, then QM = freewill. We already have enough arguments about human freewill, why you start thread about conscious subatomic particles?

 

[JDoolin]

I am strongly of the opinion that choice is a more fundamental property of matter than intelligence. An amoeba decides whether to move to the left or the right. That does not mean it is conscious. Taking that to the extreme, an electron passing through two slits "decides" where to land on the wall. Most people would call this random chance. I would call it a perfectly uninformed choice.

There are other possibilities--

1) predestination. No choice is made; Every event in spacetime is predetermined part of a four-dimensional motionless structure.
2) The branching universe hypothesis... every possibility happens in infinitely branching universes.
3) random chance; the question is: Is there any way to tell the difference between perfectly uninformed choice and random chance?
4) Branching universes PLUS time travel and dimensional travel. (This is the plot of a lot of Star Trek episode.)

In the end, though, I think it is the sort of question that can't be proven (except for case 4, which would move the question of free-will to a higher dimension); it is a matter of opinion what you think is the reality.

 

[ThomasT]

I have been trying to come up with ideas on how quantum mechanics may manifest into our 'level/scale' of reality. ...
... Would a different set of laws/rules apply because of the very large scale difference from normal QM?

Well, the scale difference entails that there are particulate media at the level of human behavior (wrt which the probabilistic behaviors of human behavior manifest) that don't exist at the quantum level. From a wave mechanical perspective, since the wave structures of particles at mesoscopic and macroscopic scales are complex, as opposed to the simple wave structures of particles at the quantum level, then it seems logical to suppose that 'organizing principles' at mesoscopic and macroscopic scales might be somewhat different than those governing quantum level behavior -- even though a 'fundamental' wave dynamic(s) might ultimately govern any and all scales of behavior.

So I guess that my tentative answer to your question is yes, pending correction from more knowledgeable posters. Obviously, the equations of qm don't apply, at least not directly, to human behavior.

You might find the following papers interesting:

The Theory of Everything
R.B. Laughlin and David Pines
Published as Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 97, 28 (2000).
ftp://large.stanford.edu/publications/1999/p01apr99/p01apr99.pdf[/URL]


The Middle Way
R.B. Laughlin, David Pines, Joerg Schmalian, Branko P. Stojkovic, Peter Wolynes
Published as Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 97, 32 (2000).
[PLAIN]ftp://large.stanford.edu/publications/1999/p01aug99/p01aug99.pdf[/URL]


The Physical Basis of Computability
R.B. Laughlin
Published as Computing in Science and Engineering 4, 27 (2002).
[PLAIN]ftp://large.stanford.edu/publications/2002/p01jan02/p01jan02.pdf[/URL]

 

[wuliheron]

Hello Everyone! - Got an idea here...

I have been trying to come up with ideas on how quantum mechanics may manifest into our 'level/scale' of reality.

Lets take a look at a basic characteristic of QM. When performing a measurement we do not know what the result will be until we measure it. However there are probabilities involved to make predictions of what the the result may be.

Now take freewill. We do not know the choice we will make until its made (performing a measurement) but we can come to a probable prediction based on what our life experiences consist of (probabilities).

Are we beings where our consciousness operates on a 'Macro QM' level? Would a different set of laws/rules would apply because of the very large scale difference from normal QM?

I run across this idea all the time that somehow size is the deciding factor in quantum mechanics. The evidence to date indicates that it is not scale per se, but environmental noise that reduces quantum indeterminacy. Thus if you have a sufficiently isolated system you can produce quantum indeterminacy in larger systems which has so far been done in the laboratory on a scale of hundreds of molecules.

As for free will, words only have demonstrable meaning according to their function in a given context. Obviously you could say I have a free choice in what say next, but not in whether I will eventually die. Without a specific context the word has no demonstrable meaning and life, the universe, and everything is not a specific context.

 

[JDoolin]

Well, the scale difference entails that there are particulate media at the level of human behavior (wrt which the probabilistic behaviors of human behavior manifest) that don't exist at the quantum level. From a wave mechanical perspective, since the wave structures of particles at mesoscopic and macroscopic scales are complex, as opposed to the simple wave structures of particles at the quantum level, then it seems logical to suppose that 'organizing principles' at mesoscopic and macroscopic scales might be somewhat different than those governing quantum level behavior -- even though a 'fundamental' wave dynamic(s) might ultimately govern any and all scales of behavior.

So I guess that my tentative answer to your question is yes, pending correction from more knowledgeable posters. Obviously, the equations of qm don't apply, at least not directly, to human behavior.

You might find the following papers interesting:

The Theory of Everything
R.B. Laughlin and David Pines
Published as Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 97, 28 (2000).
ftp://large.stanford.edu/publications/1999/p01apr99/p01apr99.pdf[/URL]


The Middle Way
R.B. Laughlin, David Pines, Joerg Schmalian, Branko P. Stojkovic, Peter Wolynes
Published as Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. 97, 32 (2000).
[PLAIN]ftp://large.stanford.edu/publications/1999/p01aug99/p01aug99.pdf[/URL]


The Physical Basis of Computability
R.B. Laughlin
Published as Computing in Science and Engineering 4, 27 (2002).
[PLAIN]ftp://large.stanford.edu/publications/2002/p01jan02/p01jan02.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]

I was just looking for a little bit of context to the scales involved, and googled "mesoscopic" and "neurons." I found mesoscopic was in the range of 100 to 1000 nanometers, while "synaptic vesicles" in the human brain have an average diameter of 39.5 nanometers with a standard deviation of 5.1 nanometers.

I haven't the slightest notion of what is going on in the neurons or between the synapses, but I'm sure it is quite a lot different from the digital on/off nature of what computers do. The computer can be programmed to respond as though it has likes and dislikes or it finds something "interesting," but while a human actually experiences opinions and beliefs, a computer can only simulate them.

As for a specific context for "free will" I would ask whether you think you can choose your opinions and beliefs. In some cases, obviously not... You have seen far too many examples of objects falling to the ground to "choose" not to believe in gravity. But can you choose to believe that red is prettier than blue, or vice versa?

 

[Noja888]

Thanks for all the comments from everyone! The mesoscopic research was a good read. Need a day to contemplate then I'll post something witty!

 

[Noja888]

Well with all these complex systems at play with our brain perhaps consciousness or self awareness arises out of these systems. With all the new research into prosthetics directly wired into neurons mayhaps some light will be shed upon the systems at play.