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If every event is governed by one or more laws

  1. Jun 11, 2014 #1
    Please help me to understand how this is possible. If time is required for an event to occur and every event is governed by one or more laws, then how can the big bang occur without time and without laws? Dr Lawrence Krauss mentions that when all that exists is nothing (I know this is self-contradictory), then anything can happen as there are no laws to determine what is allowed and what isn't.

    Since we have laws now, we know that nothing can travel faster than light, but if there are no laws in place then anything can go faster than light, infinitely fast infact. Would it even be too much to say that in a universe with zero laws even 1+1 is undefined?
  2. jcsd
  3. Jun 11, 2014 #2


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    Laws of physics breaks down within singularities.
  4. Jun 12, 2014 #3


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    The short answer is we don't know exactly what happened at the big bang. We only have theories supported by some evidence that strongly suggest a big bang occurred. Our best theories only predict what might have happened "soon" after the big bang. How soon is debatable.

    Some theories suggest a big bounce as a possible way around the sort of problems you raise.


    I don't pretend to understand them!
  5. Jun 12, 2014 #4
    I really enjoy reading about the cyclic model but I think science is not paying it much attention at the moment because our universe doesn't look like it will ever collapse? I quite like the idea of the universe (energy, laws and time) having always existed in one form or another. Sure our universe came into existence but that doesn't mean that before our universe, there wasn't a previous one.

    I can imagine a system whereby the energy, time and laws were never created in the first place, because they always existed... Quite a tough thing to wrap our brains around, something having always existed and always will, for infinity.
  6. Jun 16, 2014 #5
    I have a real problem with Dr. Lawrence Krauss's theory - it is how you deal with "nothing". Dr. Krauss and others believe that "nothing" is capable of action: for example - the belief that anything can happen when you have nothing. This is false. "Nothing" is ONLY capable of doing nothing! Zero energy can do nothing! The contradiction gets buried behind big words in hopes everyone will forget - but it is still there.

    View attachment 70645

    The Big Bang did not burp forth from the empty belly of nothing. Energy/matter existed prior to the Big Bang. There existed a "Field" of energy. A Big Bang Event is just a shift in the types of matter allowed by "The Field". There were laws prior to the Big Bang as well. The Michelson-Morely experiments of the early 19th century gave us "zero energy space". Most physicist take it for granted that flat space (zero energy) is a given truth. If they really take a look at how flimsy those experiments were - outdated and grossly inadequate - they would throw that model away. Science will have a dilemma soon - how do you marry flat space to a Higgs field? If space is empty, why is there a field of energy in there? It will be time for a divorce..

    To answer your question: the universe as we know it does not contain infinite possibilities. It is governed by sets of laws. These laws have always existed (The Field has always existed). The Big Bang is just an allowed event spontaneously produced from The Field. "Nothing" does not exist - zero energy does not exist nor could you create it. If the energy of the universe is conserved - then the only thing that can exist is energy! So before the Big Bang you did not have chaotic flux where anything happens and laws get thrown away for the Wild West.
  7. Jun 17, 2014 #6


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    While I perfectly understand your concerns about nothing being not capable of doing anything, your answer is not better - "always existed" just sweeps the question "where did it come from" under the rug and pretends it never existed.

    What I am really saying is I am not satisfied with neither answer. Not that it makes me in any way special.
  8. Jun 17, 2014 #7


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    Diggn, while I also have issues with the idea that nothing existed prior to the big bang, I have serious reservations about your post. It just looks like you've spouted a bunch of stuff without really understanding any of the concepts regarding space, fields, the Michelson-Morely experiment, etc.
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