News Is Heroism Defined by One Act or a Lifetime of Actions?

[asdfggfdsa]

While I do wonder about him graduating near the bottom of his class, I don't think I'll pay that much attention to Rolling Stone; that is, until the same information is reported by something like the NY Times. (enough information flies around to make one want to protect one's own mind)

 

[Gokul43201]

I made a post earlier (perhaps another thread) about broad generaliztions about vets. Gimme a break... you have literary license to say things like this but please understand that you are talking about a very small precentage of Vietnam vets, this is the rare exception and not the rule.

I was mindful enough not to make the broad generalization that you've accused me of, but it seems that didn't matter.

...all the great associations people (Kerry, McCain, etc.) have with some wonderful Vietnam vets ...

I said "some", not 'all', not 'most', not any other generalization that you may have imagined.

 

[Integral]

Guys,
McCain was a pilot on an aircraft carrier. He did not hob knob with grunts "in country". Before being shot down had he even set foot in Vietnam? Once again I will point out the diversity of vets, this includes Vietnam vets as a subgroup. A major division that exists is officers and enlisted. There are rules against officers socializing with enlisted. The atrocities that were committed were done by enlisted, with poor or no supervision by an officer. (Yes there was a couple of officers involved in Mia Lie (sp). But figuratively speaking the grunts and their officers (major and below) live on the wrong side of the tracks from the viewpoint of a Navy Pilot. Navy Pilots place themselves in a category of military royalty. They DO NOT hob knob with dirty stinky grunts. (My apologies to all grunts out there, this is the view point of a Navy Pilot, NOT MINE!).

To imply an association between Navy pilots and atrocity committing grunts is silly, it just did not happen. Now if you want to argue that the pilots were the ones committing the atrocities.. That is a different issue.

NeoDevin.
The flight deck of an aircraft carrier is a dangerous place on a good day. Your dismissal of the fire is indicative of your lack of experience aboard a ship of any kind. You, of course, are free to have your opinion. I would suggest however that you make an effort to open your mind to understand the experiences of others.

In general I dislike this concept of Monday morning quarterbacking the military career of presidential candidates, or anyone for that matter. So please forgive me for defending a candidate that I do not support.

Vote Obama

 

[turbo]

I am friends with a real hero, and I hate to see the term over-used and applied to anybody with a reputation to burnish. If you want to know why Ed Feldman is a hero in my eyes, please to to page 39 of this PDF. This man has GUTS.

http://www.firstcoastdoctor.com/november_2006_issue_4.pdf

 

[CaptainQuasar]

@Integral: I have to point out that when you're telling other people they shouldn't be generalizing, saying things like "Navy Pilots place themselves in a category of military royalty. They DO NOT hob knob with dirty stinky grunts." kind of weakens your case. (Because you're generalizing about Navy pilots with that.)

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[Integral]

@Integral: I have to point out that when you're telling other people they shouldn't be generalizing, saying things like "Navy Pilots place themselves in a category of military royalty. They DO NOT hob knob with dirty stinky grunts." kind of weakens your case. (Because you're generalizing about Navy pilots with that.)

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Not as much of a generalization as you might think. Perhaps you would not have objected had I said "Navy pilots consider themselves as military elite"

As for hob knobbing that is not a generalization in the least. I covered that earlier in the post it is against military regulations for officers to socialize with enlisted. Then there is the fact that is true for ALL naval personnel aboard Vietnam Era aircraft carriers. You occasionally got to see Vietnam as a green haze on the horizon. Aircraft carriers did not pull into Vietnamese ports for shore leave. So there was NO opportunity for socializing even if there had been a desire.

A pilot may have been able to chat with an infantry officer while on R&R in Tokyo. However there were more then one or 2 of each it would likely end in a fight.

Let me make one other thing clear, the closest I ever came to Vietnam is when I was home on leave. I was aboard the USS JFK spending 15months in the Mediterranean sea. That along with 1 yr in Gitmo was my sea duty. Also I was a ships company Electronics Tech. The only time I spend on the flight deck was when all the planes were in the hanger bay or tied down.
A very good friend of mine was a BMSA aboard the USS Enterprise in 1969 when it caught on fire in a very similar manner as the Forestfire did in '67. So I have heard first hand tales of Fire on the flight deck.

 

[BadDog]

If you fly into harms way on a bombing mission you are a hero. If you put yourself in the line of fire for your country you are a hero. McCain is a hero; he could have died on that mission and others.
McCain was taken prisoner (victim of circumstance) like many others.
I don’t understand how being a POW makes ones character supreme.

Fred Thompson’s GOP speech...
“Now, being a POW certainly doesn't qualify anyone to be president, but it does reveal character. My friends -- (cheers, applause) -- this is the kind of character that civilizations from the beginning of our history have sought in their leaders -- (cheers, applause) -- strength, courage, humility, wisdom, duty, honor“.

Our troops today have fought and died honorably in the “Bush” Iraq war.
When I hear McCain and Palin campaign on how leaving Iraq today would be throwing up the white flag and surrendering to al-qiada without honor, it makes me as sick as when Bush and Chaney did it.

It just seems to me McCain feels he is entitled.
NO!

 

[NeoDevin]

Before being shot down had he even set foot in Vietnam?

Yes.

The fire blazed late into the night. The following morning, while oxygen-masked rescue workers toiled to recover bodies from the lower decks, McCain was making fast friends with R.W. "Johnny" Apple of The New York Times, who had arrived by helicopter to cover the deadliest Naval calamity since the Second World War. The son of admiralty surviving a near-death experience certainly made for good copy, and McCain colorfully recounted how he had saved his skin. But when Apple and other reporters left the ship, the story took an even stranger turn: McCain left with them. As the heroic crew of the Forrestal mourned its fallen brothers and the broken ship limped toward the Philippines for repairs, McCain zipped off to Saigon for what he recalls as "some welcome R&R."

NeoDevin.
The flight deck of an aircraft carrier is a dangerous place on a good day. Your dismissal of the fire is indicative of your lack of experience aboard a ship of any kind. You, of course, are free to have your opinion. I would suggest however that you make an effort to open your mind to understand the experiences of others.

I am not dismissing the fire, the danger, or claiming whether or not he did his duty in staying out of the way. What I am claiming, is that these actions are in no way shape or form heroic. If you are claiming they are, then I don't think `heroic' means what you think it does. Let me stress this again, I am not claiming that his actions on the Forestall were in any way improper, only that, as far as I can see, there is no basis in calling them heroic.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I am suspicious that this judgment that he hasn't been heroic may be made on extrinsic factors - because his actions were taken during the Vietnam War or because he's a Republican.

Leaving aside everything except his imprisonment and torture - say, hypothetically, there was a Chinese human rights advocate who, in the course of fighting for her cause, was imprisoned by the Chinese government for 5½ years and tortured for two of those years. Wouldn't that person be a heroine? I would say so.

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[Art]

IMO heroism requires an active decision to do something which puts one's life at greater risk than one's compatriots.

Joining the military obviously fits this condition but in that case there are millions of heroes and so for the word to mean anything it is necessary to define it more closely as consciously putting one's life at greater risk than others doing the same job.

Being a prisoner does not require such an active act of selfless action. It is a passive act and so in no way incorporates the status of hero automatically. One can become a hero through imprisonment by accepting death or torture rather than reveal information to the enemy or by attempting to escape but there is no evidence McCain acted heroically in this way.

 

[Art]

Here's an interview with the 'lady' McCain corrected regarding Obama's parentage at his town hall

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nSdNVFoAMw&NR=1

She appears unrepentant and believes McCain was just being nice covering up for Obama

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Joining the military obviously fits this condition but in that case there are millions of heroes and so for the word to mean anything it is necessary to define it more closely as consciously putting one's life at greater risk than others doing the same job.

So risking your life and risking being tortured for your cause isn't heroic if there's too many other people doing the same thing? The Chinese activist is heroic if there are only a few other activists, but if there were thousands of activists or more the individual acts would no longer be heroic?

This would seem to mean that no fireman or policeman is heroic because there are so many of them all over the world facing high levels of risk to their lives.

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[Evo]

This would seem to mean that no fireman or policeman is heroic because there are so many of them all over the world facing high levels of risk to their lives.

But then you're saying every person that joins the military is a hero, which means saying McCain was a military hero means nothing more than he was in the military.

Sure, you can call McCain a hero, but it belittles the accomplishments of true heros.

The people mentioned in this thread I consider heroes. Now compare McCain to what these real heroes did.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1674416

 

[turbo]

Sure, you can call McCain a hero, but it belittles the accomplishments of true heros.

That's what galls me, too. My friend Eddie removed a live mortar round from the abdomen of a Marine (both survived), and he was helicoptered into a hot fire-fight in which an Army unit was taking heavy fire. The unit was spread out and was getting picked off piecemeal, so he organized them and got them to move to a defensible position from which the wounded could be evacuated to field hospitals. He was a Navy doctor, not a warrior, but he had guts and initiative and he put the well-being of the troops above his personal safety. I maintain that if he had even 1/10th of McCain's connections, he would have been awarded two Congressional Medals of Honor as soon as he got state-side - one for each of these incidents.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

But then you're saying every person that joins the military is a hero, which means saying McCain was a military hero means nothing more than he was in the military.

I said nothing like that, any more than, as Art tried to imply, did I claim that all prisoners are heroes.

I'm saying that someone who intentionally risks and suffers imprisonment and torture for a cause they believe to be benefiting and safeguarding others - like the Chinese human rights activist or someone entering combat in a war they're fighting out of duty, rather than for plunder or something - is a hero. (Or besides direct combat otherwise exposing themselves like a nonviolent exemption combat medical corps or spies or the merchant marine blockade-runners during WWII.) And I think that simply risking that is pretty good cred for being a hero too.

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[CaptainQuasar]

And I do not think that saying the Chinese human rights activist is a hero belittles someone who threw themselves on a grenade, so I don't think saying McCain is a hero belittles them either. I think the reason that you guys are claiming it's belittling is because you don't like McCain.

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[Evo]

I said nothing like that, any more than, as Art tried to imply, did I claim that all prisoners are heroes.

I'm saying that someone who intentionally risks and suffers imprisonment and torture for a cause they believe to be benefiting and safeguarding others - like the Chinese human rights activist or someone entering combat in a war they're fighting out of duty, rather than for plunder or something - is a hero.

You're entitled to your opinion. But, honestly, comparing someone that joined the millitary because that's what everyone in his family did, as McCain said, it never entered his mind that he wouldn't, and a Chinese human rights activist is like comparing the moon to the sun. There is no comparison.

Like I said, if that's your definition of a hero, then that is simply your definition of a hero. It is not my definition, nor, it appears, is it the definition of the majority of the people here.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

You're entitled to your opinion. But, honestly, comparing someone that joined the millitary because that's what everyone in his family did, as McCain said, it never entered his mind that he wouldn't, and a Chinese human rights activist is like comparing the moon to the sun. There is no comparison.

Like I said, if that's your definition of a hero, then that is simply your definition of a hero. It is not my definition, nor, it appears, is it the definition of the majority of the people here.

From what you said right there it doesn't appear to be a matter of definitions; you may simply have more authoritative knowledge than me for McCain's motivation to enter combat. You're saying he was sort of herded into combat via peer pressure and I think more noble reasons like honor and integrity and solidarity with his countrymen were more prominent and that there was more volition to the choice. If you agree that the Chinese human rights activist is a hero it sounds like we have pretty similar definitions and differ only on the facts of each case.

By the way, I'm not saying that people who didn't make the same choices as him during that era, or didn't have the same beliefs, were cowards or something. I think many of the Vietnam anti-war activists were certainly courageous and some even qualify as heroic. I'm also not saying that the Vietnam war was right or just, as McCain appears to believe. Being a hero doesn't have anything to do with being correct in your beliefs in my opinion.

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[LowlyPion]

I think the reason that you guys are claiming it's belittling is because you don't like McCain.

I just don't see how it serves any purpose to think that there would be any contests as regards to selflessness. The circumstances of anyone's acts of selflessness are incredibly complex to compare. For instance as regards Mother Theresa surely her selflessness and devotion rises above the threshold of our notice for throwing herself on the grenade of human suffering in Calcutta. Yet she has faced down no tank or dodged a screaming SAM.

As for McCain no one denies that he placed himself in harms way, though the reason may more fairly be attributed to career ambition on his part than actual love for country or particular devotion to his duty. Neither was his captivity marked by any particular acts of total disregard for himself, as he was apparently broken by the North Vietnamese, insofar as he became useful to them for their propaganda purposes.

One might even observe that McCain's experience served more to form his inner self, than it did to distinguish himself among other men, because it seems to have brought him to grips with the limits of his hubris and his life of privilege. That the Republicans have chosen to mythologize the facts of his confinement is to be expected for the purpose of big noting their candidate. But merely because some around here choose not to buy into this political hagiography of the candidate, you know scientific method being so rampant here, doesn't necessarily imply bias based on disliking him, so much as it might really be the reflection of a more objective assessment of the facts.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I just don't see how it serves any purpose to think that there would be any contests as regards to selflessness.

But thinking there's contests in regards to heroism is perfectly reasonable? Designating one act of selflessness as heroism belittles people who acted with even greater selflessness?

But merely because some around here choose not to buy into this political hagiography of the candidate, you know scientific method being so rampant here, doesn't necessarily imply bias based on disliking him, so much as it might really be the reflection of a more objective assessment of the facts.

That's the opposite of what I'm seeing - it seems to me that people are not applying scientific method very well here. You may note that many of my arguments above have involved demonstrating that someone else taking similar actions could easily qualify as a hero or that the definitions of "hero" that appear to be contrived to exclude McCain would exclude other people who are clearly heroes or make heroism extrinsic, a matter of context. That's why I'm positing that it has something to do with McCain personally.

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[turbo]

You may note that many of my arguments above have involved demonstrating that someone else taking similar actions could easily qualify as a hero or that the definitions of "hero" that appear to be contrived to exclude McCain would exclude other people who are clearly heroes. That's why I'm positing that it has something to do with McCain personally.

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Getting captured does not make you a hero. Getting tortured and broken by your captors does not make you a hero. If that were the case, every single captive in Gitmo is a hero. We should give them medals and send them home. Sheesh!

People who reject the aggrandizement of McCain for his experiences in Viet-Nam are not all McCain-haters. Perhaps you could see this "hero" aura in terms of what people have actually done to earn it - not what their handlers think they can get away with.

 

[Evo]

From what you said right there it doesn't appear to be a matter of definitions; you may simply have more authoritative knowledge than me for McCain's motivation to enter combat. You're saying he was sort of herded into combat via peer pressure

He wrote about it in one of his books, he said he wasn't forced to go, but it wasn't questioned that he would go.

My did was hit in the face by shrapnel and blinded while trying to help a wounded soldier. He was completely blinded in one eye and only able to see through a tiny spot in the other, he was "legally blind", he's dead now. My dad managed to put himself through college after the war and get his engineering degree while raising two kids. IMO, my dad is a war hero, McCain is not. We definitely differ.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Getting captured does not make you a hero. Getting tortured and broken by your captors does not make you a hero. If that were the case, every single captive in Gitmo is a hero.

This is the same misleading characterization of my argument that Art made above, as though I've claimed that all prisoners must be heroes.

He wrote about it in one of his books, he said he wasn't forced to go, but it wasn't questioned that he would go.

That doesn't mean that the reason he went was not a matter of duty, integrity, or solidarity with his countrymen, though.

My did was hit in the face by shrapnel and blinded while trying to help a wounded soldier. He was completely blinded in one eye and only able to see through a tiny spot in the other, he was "legally blind", he's dead now. My dad managed to put himself through college after the war and get his engineering degree while raising two kids. IMO, my dad is a war hero, McCain is not. We definitely differ.

Okay, but if you're saying the difference is definition, I don't understand what you're saying is materially different in your dad's case. Is it because you think McCain taking part in an offensive did not constitute helping others? Or because you regard blindness as a more severe injury that what McCain suffered? Or because of his (heroic) efforts post-war in raising his children? I think that your dad was a war hero too.

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To summarize, that a Chinese human rights activist intentionally risking and then suffering 5½ years including two years of torture would qualify as heroism indicates to me that an individual taking the same actions as McCain would be heroic if the cause was sufficiently noble. Hence opposition to calling McCain a hero seems like it must either be rooted in disputing the genuine nobility of his cause (which would be an extrinsic objection) or disputing whether the cause was the motivation for his actions (which could be true but points to a difference on the facts of the case, not on the definition of heroism.)

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[Evo]

Seriously, this is an opinion thread. You've given your opinion, I've given mine. You bringing up chinese freedom fighters a thousand times isn't going to change anyone's opinion of McCain, unless McCain *is in fact* a chinese freedom fighter, in which case, that might have some meaning.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

I should also say that I'm not saying I regard McCain's motivations as unquestionable - I'm just saying that I think it's important to acknowledge that his actions could demonstrate heroism if they were not taken for craven reasons. I certainly agree that McCain's campaign(s) will have hyped everything up in an attempt to remove all doubt that his motivations were anything but noble.

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[CaptainQuasar]

Seriously, this is an opinion thread. You've given your opinion, I've given mine. You bringing up chinese freedom fighters a thousand times isn't going to change anyone's opinion of McCain, unless McCain is a chinese freedom fighter, in which case, that might have some meaning.

Ah, sorry, I mistook it for also being a reasoning thread. Sorry to intrude.

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[Evo]

Ah, sorry, I mistook it for also being a reasoning thread too. Sorry to intrude.

Your reasoning is that you consider McCain and a Chinese human rights activist the same?

 

[turbo]

My father quit HS to volunteer for the Airborne. He broke his ankle in a drop and spent the remainder of the war in a motor pool attached to an artillery unit in Belgium. He is not a hero, but I am proud of him anyway, just as I am proud of the many other vets of his age. My wife's uncle died recently, and he was at Anzio - a battle with heavy US losses. Lots of these guys saw harrowing duty and acted bravely. They do not (did not) consider themselves heroes, but we all honor their duty. Seeing self-aggrandizement by politicians tossing around "hero" is pretty tacky.

 

[Evo]

My father quit HS to volunteer for the Airborne. He broke his ankle in a drop and spent the remainder of the war in a motor pool attached to an artillery unit in Belgium. He is not a hero, but I am proud of him anyway, just as I am proud of the many other vets of his age. My wife's uncle died recently, and he was at Anzio - a battle with heavy US losses. Lots of these guys saw harrowing duty and acted bravely. They do not (did not) consider themselves heroes, but we all honor their duty. Seeing self-aggrandizement by politicians tossing around "hero" is pretty tacky.

Absolutely agree. My dad never talked about what happened. I knew from my mother and the medals my dad had. He felt he was just doing what anyone would do in that circumstance, you forget about your own safety and just try to pull your buddies out of harm when you're being bombed. He was on board a ship. Oh, McCain ran for safety, well I guess not everyone feels the same way about helping.

 

[CaptainQuasar]

Your reasoning is that you consider McCain and a Chinese human rights activist the same?

You've avoided responding to more than that. But yes, I regard analogical reasoning as valid as the ways you or others have been arguing.

If you regard analogical reasoning as valid, we could search for a different analogy that parallels the situation acceptable to both you and I. You don't have to pretend that my entire point rests upon that single comparison. I mostly pursued it because people seemed to consider it another example of heroism (or so I inferred from an apparent resistance to respond to it.)

My father quit HS to volunteer for the Airborne. He broke his ankle in a drop and spent the remainder of the war in a motor pool attached to an artillery unit in Belgium. He is not a hero, but I am proud of him anyway, just as I am proud of the many other vets of his age. My wife's uncle died recently, and he was at Anzio - a battle with heavy US losses. Lots of these guys saw harrowing duty and acted bravely. They do not (did not) consider themselves heroes, but we all honor their duty. Seeing self-aggrandizement by politicians tossing around "hero" is pretty tacky.

I would count your wife's uncle as a hero myself and as for your father, like I said I think just being willing to stick your neck out that way is pretty good hero cred.

I do agree that, genuine hero or not, for someone to ostentatiously talk about themselves as a hero (or pay other people to, in the case of a campaign) is arrogant and unseemly. It's certainly possible for someone to tarnish their heroism or cast it into doubt by making their own motivations look bad.

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