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News Lawrence of Arabia was really a Zionist?

  1. Feb 24, 2007 #1
    I'm not sure if this is politics or history but it certainly is both.

    An extraordinary claim by a historian(Sir Martin Gilbert) Who claims to have uncovered evidence that T.E.Lawrence, far from being the staunch Arabist he was made out to be, may have had more Zionist leanings.

    Anyone think the man responsible in no small part for the independence and formation of the Arabs states was also a Zionist sympathiser, it'll be interesting to see the sources when they arrive. I don't think the two are incompatible at all, I support both sides myself, or am against neither at least, I prefer to fence sit :smile:

    Anyway just something that caught my interest in the news I thought I'd share.

    Background information about T.E.Lawrence.


    The article:-

    http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2300412.ece" [Broken]

    I noticed in the wikipedia article a map penned by Lawrence himself, denoting envisioned borders for the Arabs, notice Sanai,the area beyond Egypt and the mountain where Moses recieved the ten commandments. I wonder if this was a nod to the Jews of the time?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7e/Lawrence_map800.jpg [Broken]
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 25, 2007 #2
    I think the key comment here is:
  4. Mar 4, 2007 #3


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    Yes most people thought then that the jews and the muslims could coexist in a single state. In fact I believe when the zionists declared independence it had less than wholehearted support from the jewish population of the time.

    Perhaps the world would be a more peaceful place today if a single state solution had been adopted at the time with all Semites both Muslims and Jews living peacefully side by side.
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2007
  5. Mar 5, 2007 #4
    On what do you base this?
    Let's not get back to the whole "who started it" routine. By 1947 there was enough animosity to warrant a two state solution - take for example the 1929 Hebron Massacre in which the Arabs of Hebron massacred, raped and mutilated their centuries-long Jewish neighbours.
  6. Mar 5, 2007 #5


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    People such as Rabbi Judah Leon Magnes led a movement which favoured a bi-national solution. Also Brit Shalom also known as the Jewish-Palestinian Peace Alliance, who btw Einstein supported, also favoured a bi-national solution.

    I wasn't trying to be controversial but seeing as you brought it up there are also innumerable examples from that time of zionists massacring arabs and British too for that matter.

    I'm not arguing with the terminology used but if the callous murder of 67 jews at Hebron constitutes a massacre what term do you think should be used to describe the brutal murder of >40,000 Lebanese civilians by Israel and it's militias in 1982 or the slaughter of more than 1000 Lebanese civilians last year? Genocide perhaps??

    Here's a quote from the Polish immigrant David Gruen better known as David Ben-Gurion.
    In June 1963 Ben-Gurion resigned as Prime Minister because of the "Lavon Affair," and was replaced by Levi Eshkol. Pinhas Lavon had been Defense Minister in 1954 when an Israeli spy ring was caught in Egypt, trying to blow up the USIA and other Western targets and putting the blame on the Egyptians. Lavon refused to take responsibility, insisting that Ben Gurion had given the order. Does this sound like state sponsored terrorism to you?
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 5, 2007
  7. Mar 5, 2007 #6
    One needs to be very clear about the timelines in such circles of violence. The animosity between Arabs and Jews in Palestine did not form overnight. Unfortunately, support for Brit-Shalom drastically declined after the 1929 Arab revolt:
    IMO, a binational solution is a pipe dream, not unlike communism and "enlightened" occupations.

    Again, one needs to examine the historical contexts in these events.

    Israel never murdered 40,000 Lebanese, it (foolishly) entered into a bloody civil war. The total casualty number from the period of Israel's involvement does not approach even half of your figure. The famous massacres of Sabra and Shatila, for which Israel was indirectly responsible, were committed by http://www.aceviper.net/members/cobra/07.html" [Broken]:
    Nonetheless, it is a shameful stain on Israel's history, which led to a 300,000-strong demonstration in Tel-Aviv and ultimately, a bitter dispute between prime-minister Begin and Ariel Sharon. Now let us get back to the original argument.

    I was searching for the source on Google, but all it came up with were anti-Israeli sources. Perhaps you can provide a reliable source, preferably one that will present the entire passage so we can recognise the context.

    Actually, Lavon never blamed Ben-Gurion, since Ben-Gurion was retired at the time, but on the head of military intelligence, Binyamin Gibli. Still, Lavon resigned as defense minister and was succeded by Ben-Gurion, who went on to become prime-minister yet again. It was at this time that the tensions between the two emerged, due to Ben-Gurion's refusas to acquit Lavon based on the findings of a commission his own government initiated. The politics of that period are the subject of endless studies and debates, but it is generally agreed that Lavon was "picked on" by Ben-Gurion, whose strong-armed politics may have been necessary at earlier times (see the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altalena_Affair" [Broken]) but were now obsolete, and his breakaway party won only 10 seats in the next election.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2017
  8. Mar 5, 2007 #7
    YONOZ take to heart the statement made by YONOZ this has nothing to do with "Who Started it" it is about whether TE Lawrence had in mind a Jewish state within the unified arab states.
    You seem to have taken an opportunity based on some nonspecific statements by ART to hijack this thread and turn it into a lets blame the Arab nation thread.
    Both sides have carried escallating attacks on civilians and to call them acts of terrorism or acts of valid defence can be equally applied to both sides.
    Can we have the original thread back now please.
  9. Mar 5, 2007 #8
    My apologies.
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