Mathematica notebook for conversion to Newtonian metric ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conversion of a general metric to a Newtonian metric as experienced by a free-fall observer, particularly using Mathematica. It touches on concepts from general relativity, including local inertial metrics, Riemann normal coordinates, and weak-field approximations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the basic postulate of general relativity (GR) is that locally spacetime appears flat, with metrics reducible to a local inertial metric at a point.
  • One participant cautions against inconsistent terminology in the literature regarding the meaning of "locally" and suggests that spacetime can be modeled as a Lorentzian manifold.
  • There is a discussion about the existence of a "Newtonian metric," with some arguing that it cannot be directly identified with any Lorentzian metric.
  • A participant proposes that the deviations from the Minkowski metric can be described by a 'Newtonian gravitational potential' and relates this to weak-field approximations.
  • Another participant questions the feasibility of a Mathematica notebook for this conversion, suggesting that understanding the computations is crucial before using software tools.
  • One participant expresses a specific mathematical inquiry about constructing Riemann normal coordinates around a specified point and seeks resources or tools to assist in this process.
  • A later reply references a specific section in an article that discusses the expansion of the metric in Riemann normal coordinates, although there is some uncertainty about the meaning of expanding up to order 1/c^2.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the terminology and concepts related to Newtonian metrics and their relation to Lorentzian metrics. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the existence and utility of a Mathematica notebook for the specific conversion task.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the assumptions made about the metrics and the specific mathematical steps required to achieve the desired conversions. The complexity of the geodesic equations and the nature of the approximations involved are also noted.

smallphi
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Basic postulate of GR is that locally spacetime looks flat i.e. any metric can be reduced to a local inertial metric at a point. The local inertial metric is exactly the flat Minkowski metric AT the point, and has zero derivatives AT the point but those are not true away from the point.

Then Newtonian metric is the metric felt by a free fall observer. In it, the deviations from the Minkowski metric, to first order in 1/c^2, are described by a 'Newtonian gravitational potential'. I think this is the same thing as writing a general metric in 'Newtonian approximation', 'Newtonian gauge' or 'Weak field approximation'.

I have a general metric and need a Mathematica notebook that will convert it to the Newtonian metric felt by a specified free fall observer. Does anyone know of something like that ?
 
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What would Gauss say?

smallphi said:
Basic postulate of GR is that locally spacetime looks flat

Be careful, the physics literature unfortunately uses some badly inconsistent terminology here: "locally" should mean "in a local neighborhood", not "at the level of jet spaces" or even "eventwise", but older books/papers confuse these completely different notions.

You should say, "i.e., we assume that spacetime can be modeled as a Lorentzian manifold". Gtr involves much more than this assumption, of course, which is shared with a large class of gravitation theories.

smallphi said:
any metric can be reduced to a local inertial metric at a point. The local inertial metric is exactly the flat Minkowski metric AT the point, and has zero derivatives AT the point but those are not true away from the point.

You are probably thinking of Riemann normal coordinates, in which the Christoffel symbols vanish at some event, but this is a mathematical construction valid on any Lorentzian manifold and has nothing to do with physics.

smallphi said:
Then Newtonian metric is the metric felt by a free fall observer.

Careful, there is no "Newtonian metric" which is identifiable with any Lorentzian metric. (There is a geometric approach sometimes called "Newtonian spacetime", but that uses degenerate metrics, which are certainly not Lorentzian metrics, which are nondegenerate indeterminate.)

smallphi said:
In it, the deviations from the Minkowski metric, to first order in 1/c^2, are described by a 'Newtonian gravitational potential'. I think this is the same thing as writing a general metric in 'Newtonian approximation', 'Newtonian gauge' or 'Weak field approximation'.

Sounds like you are thinking of constructing a Riemann normal chart in a Lorentzian spacetime which is a weak-field approximation to a static vacuum solution in general relativity?

smallphi said:
I have a general metric and need a Mathematica notebook that will convert it to the Newtonian metric felt by a specified free fall observer. Does anyone know of something like that ?

Well, I don't think such a notebook could exist (unless it were cranky!*), and in any case, you can't use software tools if you don't understand what you are computing!

If you can type in your metric as pseudolatex, I can probably help you

1. find a "weak-field approximation",

2. find a normal chart,

3. find a frame suitable for studying the experience of observers with specified properties, unless you are doing something absurdly complicated or mistaken,

or some combination.

*FYI: I have been told that a certain crank with a "cult following" has directed his acolytes (who are not physicists) to seek out software on the net for purposes of computing nonsense. Sad.
 
Sounds like you are thinking of constructing a Riemann normal chart in a Lorentzian spacetime which is a weak-field approximation to a static vacuum solution in general relativity?

Forget the weak field, the exact math question I have in mind is:

given are:
a general metric in some coordinates
a point of spacetime specified by its coordinates
4 orthonormal vectors at that point specified by their components

construct:
the Riemann normal coordinates around that point i.e. I need the metric expressed in those coordinates up to terms of order 1/c^2


I've seen the general procedure in Hartle's GR textbook but it's hard to implement in practise when the solutions of the geodesic equations are not obvious. Since I need the Riemann coordinates only up to terms of order 1/c^2, I hope there is a simplified way to find those. I am interested in article/book that shows how that approximate Riemman coordinate metric can be found or Mathematica notebook that can do it for me.
 
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smallphi said:
construct:
the Riemann normal coordinates around that point i.e. I need the metric expressed in those coordinates up to terms of order 1/c^2

See section 7.2 of http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0306052" . There's an expansion for the metric about the origin of a Riemann normal coordinate system in powers of distance. I don't know what you mean by expanding up to order 1/c^2, but to lowest nontrivial order, all you need is the Riemann tensor at the origin.
 
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Thanks a lot Stingray, your answer hit right on target.
 
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