Obama has chosen his VP, the universe has decohered/collapsed

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of wavefunction collapse and decoherence in the context of an observer's interaction with the environment, using the metaphor of political choices, specifically relating to Obama's selection of a vice president. It explores theoretical implications of quantum mechanics, particularly regarding entangled states and the conditions under which wavefunctions can be considered orthogonal.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes that the wavefunction of a box containing N molecules is entangled with the environment, suggesting that the size of N affects the orthogonality of the wavefunction in relation to Obama's choices.
  • Another participant questions the collapse of Biden's wavefunction, noting that despite a large environment, it remains uncollapsed, prompting inquiries into how this can be determined.
  • A later post introduces a scenario where the wavefunction can be expressed as a superposition of states associated with different environments, raising questions about the necessary conditions for an N particle operator to yield distinct eigenvalues for different states.
  • Further clarification is sought regarding the specific components of the environment that must be included in an operator to achieve the desired properties related to eigenvalues and eigenvectors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of wavefunction collapse and the implications of environmental interactions, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without consensus.

Contextual Notes

The discussion involves complex quantum mechanical concepts that may depend on specific definitions and assumptions about wavefunctions and entanglement, which are not fully resolved in the posts.

Count Iblis
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Suppose an observer is located a few thousand km from Obama. If that observer has a box containing N molecules then, because the box doesn't keep the molecules isolated from the environment, the wavefunction of the N molecules is always in an entangled state with the environment. We can simply say that the N molecules are part of the environment that has decohered because of Obama's choice.

The question is how large must we choose N so that the wavefunction will be close to orthogonal for the few choices Obama has?
 
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Biden's wave-form hasn't collapsed, though his environment is large. How will you figure this.
 
turbo-1 said:
Biden's wave-form hasn't collapsed, though his environment is large. How will you figure this.

Well, we can't be consciously aware of our own exact wavefunction.

Anyway, we now have a situation like:

|VP_1>|environment_1> + |VP_2>|environment_2> + ...

The question is as follows. For what N is it possible to have an N particle operator acting on the environment states that
has the |environment_k> states as eigenvectors with different eigenvalues for different k? The N particles are chosen several thousand km from Obama.
 
Last edited:
Put differently, in the operator A


A = sum over k of k |environment_k><environment_k|

what part of the environment do you really need to include here for A to have the desired property?
 

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