Philosophical theory of determinism

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the philosophical theory of determinism, particularly in relation to quantum physics and chaos theory. Participants explore the implications of determinism on predictability and the nature of probability, questioning whether it exists as a concept or merely serves as a tool for prediction in uncertain conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses curiosity about the scientific thoughts on determinism and its relationship with quantum physics, noting Einstein's concerns about indeterminate events.
  • Another participant questions how much of the environment needs to be duplicated to test determinism, suggesting that theoretically, all conditions should be replicated.
  • A later reply emphasizes that replicating exact antecedent conditions is impossible due to chaos theory and Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle, which limits our ability to know prior conditions with precision.
  • Some participants propose that if conditions could be perfectly replicated, determinism would imply the same outcome every time, while others challenge this notion by highlighting the limitations imposed by the uncertainty principle.
  • There is a mention of the Aspect experiment in relation to locality and its implications for duplicating prior conditions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of determinism and the existence of probability. Multiple competing views remain regarding the implications of quantum physics, chaos theory, and the feasibility of replicating conditions for deterministic outcomes.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in replicating real-world experiments due to chaos theory and the uncertainty principle, which are acknowledged but not resolved.

Dooga Blackrazor
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My knowledge of physics is plebian so please bare with me. I have been thinking about the philosophical theory of determinism lately, and I am trying to discover the scientific thoughts behind the matter.

In fact, I found that Einstein was worried by Quantum Physics and the presence of seemingly indetermined events. However, to my knowledge, these events are not proven to be indetermined - or are not necessarily irreconcilable within Chaos Theory?

Moving on, however, I have a question I am wondering if someone can answer. Does probability exist or is it a way to predict when variables cannot be determined? For instance, if the exact environmental circumstances were the same (angle, texture, weather, everything), and you flipped a coin, would you get the same result every time? I am inclined to say yes, but I am not knowledable in the area.

Thanks
 
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How much of the environment were you proposing to duplicate ?

There is a relationship between determinism and locality...
 
Tournesol said:
How much of the environment were you proposing to duplicate ?

There is a relationship between determinism and locality...

Theoretically, all of it. Time, place, area.
 
Dooga Blackrazor said:
My knowledge of physics is plebian so please bare with me. I have been thinking about the philosophical theory of determinism lately, and I am trying to discover the scientific thoughts behind the matter.

In fact, I found that Einstein was worried by Quantum Physics and the presence of seemingly indetermined events. However, to my knowledge, these events are not proven to be indetermined - or are not necessarily irreconcilable within Chaos Theory?

Moving on, however, I have a question I am wondering if someone can answer. Does probability exist or is it a way to predict when variables cannot be determined? For instance, if the exact environmental circumstances were the same (angle, texture, weather, everything), and you flipped a coin, would you get the same result every time? I am inclined to say yes, but I am not knowledable in the area.

Thanks
The correct answer is that nobody knows for certain - because the experiment (replicating the precise antecedent conditions) is impossible in the real world. This lies at the heart of (a) chaos theory and (b) Hesienberg's Uncertainty Principle.

Both (a) and (b) act to render it impossible to perfectly replicate any real-world experiment (we can of course replicate artificial world experiments that we already know to be deterministic and based on integer values rather than real values, such as those based on Conway's game of Life).

Having said that - I am inclined to agree with you when you say you are inclined to say yes. I believe determinism is true - which means that if one could perfectly replicate the antecedent conditions, then we have no rational reason (under a deterministic account) to suppose that the outcome would be any different.

Best Regards
 
Last edited:
Apart from the Aspect experiment...

(And if locality is true, you *can* duplicate the prior conditions)
 
Tournesol said:
Apart from the Aspect experiment...

(And if locality is true, you *can* duplicate the prior conditions)
the HUP prevents one from perfectly duplicating prior conditions - our knowledge of those prior conditions is limited in precision - thus any duplication would be no more than an approximation, within the precision allowed by the HUP

Best Regards
 

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