Space, matter and physical models

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between space and matter in physical models, exploring whether models can be constructed starting from matter rather than space. Participants consider the implications of such a shift and the potential for new understandings of spacetime.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that all physical models start with space and then incorporate matter, but encounters issues like infinite curvatures that hinder unification.
  • Another participant argues that to describe the relations of matter, one must introduce the concept of distance, thereby incorporating space.
  • A different viewpoint proposes that distance could be a consequence of how matter units interact, suggesting that time might play a role in defining space through the history of interactions.
  • Several participants outline three possibilities regarding the primacy of spacetime versus matter: (1) space as the progenitor of matter, (2) matter as the progenitor of space, and (3) a more fundamental entity from which both arise.
  • One participant expresses a preference for the third possibility but acknowledges that all three perspectives could be valid.
  • Another participant seeks resources to explore the second and third possibilities further, indicating interest in existing literature on the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether space or matter should be considered primary, with multiple competing perspectives presented. The discussion remains unresolved regarding which model may be more accurate or foundational.

Contextual Notes

Participants have not reached consensus on the definitions of space and matter or the implications of their proposed models. The discussion includes speculative ideas that have not been fully developed or substantiated.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in theoretical physics, the foundations of spacetime, and the philosophical implications of matter and space may find this discussion relevant.

bagheraa
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As far as I have seen, all physical models begin with space, and then put matter that live in space and modify it somehow. Basically the models works fine and describe reality farily well. But at some point they arrive to problems, as infinite curvatures, that prevents them to be unified.

It could be possible a model that begins with matter, and from the relations of matter then deduce space? Is this a none sense? What would be the matter?
 
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To describe "relations" of matter, you need to describe the distance between matter, and once you do that you've introduced "space" in some sense. What kind of a scheme were you thinking about?
 
I don't have by now a cocrete idea. I think on something where distance is one of the consecuences of the form the matter units relates between them. Maybe distance is only the time it takes to react to a change. In some sense a matter unit would be reading the past history of other matter units. When we have more than two matter units this shifted times could be, in some aspects, understood as a space.
 
bagheraa said:
It could be possible a model that begins with matter, and from the relations of matter then deduce space? Is this a none sense? What would be the matter?

Your idea seems neither nonsensical nor silly. Don't forget to include time as well as space, or "spacetime", in your eventual solution!

Regarding the primacy of spacetime vs. matter there are (at least) three possibilities: (1) space is the progenitor of matter. I believe Einstein put considerable effort into deriving matter from empty spacetime. (2) matter is the progenitor of spacetime, which your idea, and doubtlessly others as well. (3) something more fundamental than either, from which both are derived.

My bias is door # (3), but the answer, when it surely comes, might be formulatable in all three ways.
 
James_Harford said:
Regarding the primacy of spacetime vs. matter there are (at least) three possibilities: (1) space is the progenitor of matter. I believe Einstein put considerable effort into deriving matter from empty spacetime. (2) matter is the progenitor of spacetime, which your idea, and doubtlessly others as well. (3) something more fundamental than either, from which both are derived.

My bias is door # (3), but the answer, when it surely comes, might be formulatable in all three ways.

Thanks for your answer.

Where can I find information on my bias door (2) and on yours (3)? Do you have links where I can look for others work?
 
Where can I find information on my bias door (2) and on yours (3)? Do you have links where I can look for others work?

Read This

On Space and Time

Shahn Majid

Oxford University Press
 

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