News University research in the Age of Protest

[Frabjous]

It's all part of the same institution. I think some of V50's points have merit.

At JHU, protestors are calling for the University to lose APL.
LANL and LLNL while run by UC are no longer part of UC.

 

[Frabjous]

The problem is that students are taking over buildings. Ignoring the specialized threats, they are sealing entrances turning the buildings into fire hazards. Given the risk, should there be any buildings allowed on a campus at all?

 

[Vanadium 50]

NFPA placards

Berekely Lab has that exact NFPA sign on the way to the cafeteria. I think it's just coincidence. I think.

 

[Hornbein]

They might have had a cyclotron building, but the last cyclotron on campus, the 60 inch, was shut down in 1962.

I wonder what it was then. It was pretty big, in containment, and experiments were set up. It was so long ago I don't recall details.

 

[Hornbein]

Universities are intended to be open places,

So 20th century.

 

[Hornbein]

What is the value of a research university if all of the research is performed away from the university?

In the old days there was a lot more interaction between the various fields. Isaac Newton was a mystic. But that's way out of style. I guess the idea is that there's already no crossover, we want the business, uh, university to expand, we can't expand the central campus, so we have to start a new campus. The University of Tokyo has six campi.

 

[berkeman]

Berekely Lab has that exact NFPA sign on the way to the cafeteria. I think it's just coincidence. I think.

With those same numbers for Health, Flammability, Reactivity/Instability and Special/Cautions? Hopefully it's a joke, but even if it's a joke, the Fire Marshall should not allow it. That would stop me in my tracks if I were responding to an emergency call from whatever is behind that sign...

https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...eMLLCPyD8Qtc13OJ1larMQUqtj4slbChoCnX4QAvD_BwE

 

[Hornbein]

I was a low wage student employee in a University of Michigan lab. They had a bottle of PCBs right next to the sink. It occurred to me that if this were poured down the drain it could cause an unthinkable amount of carcinogenic pollution. I refrained from doing so.

They also had big bottles of 100% alcohol. Occasionally I would mix that with coffee. I found out later that the reagent is distilled over the carcinogen benzene. Fifty years later still going strong, so it appears I got away with it.

 

[Vanadium 50]

With those same numbers for Health, Flammability, Reactivity/Instability and Special/Cautions?

Yup. 4-4-3-no water. To get from Building 70 (or maybe it's 70A) to the cafeteria, you go past the labs, through a loading dock, past the sign (which I think leads to a gas shed) and outside and up the stairs.

I don't know what they keep there, but as the labs nearby work with semiconductors, perhaps arsine.

 

[berkeman]

Yikes. I used to drive past a Cisco Foods distribution center in Newark California (near Fremont), and they had a similar placard outside of their main building. I kept thinking, "But they make food in there...!"

Unfortunately the Google Street View of their location is not high enough resolution to show the placard...

 

[Vanadium 50]

"But they make food in there...!"

Soylent Green?

I think this emphasizes my point. A lot of benign things use nasty chemicals or equipment. University security is intended to deter the curious student or casual thief, but not a large group of students intent on mischief.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Stanford has SLAC, a couple miles away. Berkeley has LBNL, which is closer but up a monstrous hill. UChicago has Argonne and MIT has Bates, a short drive. These are more secure, and far less likely to be hazardous to uninvolved students.

As far as "invented", I would say the Stanford case was a near miss. How many other near misses do we need?

So any inconvenience for students doing research (undergrads, doctoral, pre-doctoral) while also taking classes is ignored in your scenario?

What about the fact that you are banishing PIs and their staff to remote locations off campus, all in the name of satisfying a vague sense of 'safety'? Or is it ok to sentence a faculty member to deal with monstrous hills every day while they commute between class and lab?

[Edit]: And the cost- do you expect universities to pay for this on their own? Do you have any idea how much it would cost, or do you think I could just move my lab into an empty apartment somewhere?

You are completely focused on the wrong kind of hooligan- the randos breaking in are not the real danger.

 

[Vanadium 50]

You are completely focused on the wrong kind of hooligan-

A. What is the right kind of hooligan?
B. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that if you can't fix everything you can't fix anything.

 

[strangerep]

They also had big bottles of 100% alcohol. Occasionally I would mix that with coffee. I found out later that the reagent is distilled over the carcinogen benzene. Fifty years later still going strong, so it appears I got away with it.

Did you? Are you sure you haven't forgotten some stuff?

 

[Mayhem]

Or someone with a set of bolt cutters. $47.97 at Home Depot. Free deliver too!

Then break-in would be obvious and an investigation would begin immediately. Chemical cabinets are messy and many containers look similar despite containing different chemicals. But inventory accounting would quickly reveal what's missing, unlike simply walking into a lab after hours and stealing.

 

[Hornbein]

Did you? Are you sure you haven't forgotten some stuff?

You mean maybe I forget I died? Could be.

 

[Hornbein]

A. What is the right kind of hooligan?

Our hooligans are good. Their hooligans are bad.

 

[Rive]

I would start with establishing a policy of automatic expulsion with no possibility of appeal for destroying or taking control of university property.

Yep. It's one thing to be prepared for reasonable dangers and have a system of security measures and permissions for reasonably expectable dangers (and that may include at most a policy for any case of danger of mob attacks) but it's a completely different thing to be continuously prepared for unreasonable mob attacks, especially in a campus.

It should have been made very clear that entering the wrong place and doing the wrong thing will have severe consequences - and bolt the doors in case of any torch&pitchfork event, just to make the hints clear.

 

[Frabjous]

We do not live our lives believing that someone will break into our homes. We believe in societal constraints and taking reasonable precautions. These precautions will do nothing to prevent a determined intruder. We believe in the government to maintain order.

I believe the scenario assumes that uncontrollable mobs will be roaming around campus. Given that university administration will not maintain order in these scenarios, I would replace the current leadership with one that will create a civil society on campus.

 

[Frabjous]

Are we sure that V50 is not trying his hand at a viral marketing campaign for Furiosa?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Then break-in would be obvious and an investigation would begin immediately.

These students aren't sneaking around. They want attention. Their proposition is, at its core, "Accept out demands, or we will break your stuff."

 

[Vanadium 50]

I would replace the current leadership with one that will create a civil society on campus.

And I would replace the more extreme protestors with ones who will hold hands and sing Kumbaya. But I don't think either is going to happen.

The modern academic view is very simple: you have oppressors and you have the oppressed. Given that worldview, no administrator wants to put himself in the category of "oppressor".

But you might be able to improve safety by moving dangerous things off campus. If you want to say the protestors are acting like children, shouldn't we child-proof the campus?

 

[pinball1970]

These students aren't sneaking around. They want attention. Their proposition is, at its core, "Accept out demands, or we will break your stuff."

Then the onus is on them not to hurt themselves in the process. If the law puts the onus on the university to make sure vandals are protected when damaging property that is ass about in my view.

Shouldn't we child-proof the campus?

That's an option.
The government could instruct the victim of crimes (Universities ) to cater for protestors (criminals) lack of health and safety awareness.
Via extra security where required? following safety audits, risk assessments by a third party or similar?
Security guards have salaries and audits have auditors and man day rates which cost $. That cost could be passed onto the victims of the crime (students) in terms of fees, eventually paid for by the tax payer (me and you)

I am happy to pay for textbooks and lab equipment every year, not as happy cater for a 63 old protestor breaking into an NMR lab with a pacemaker.

 

[pinball1970]

I would replace the current leadership with one that will create a civil society on campus.

Both have had issues with that kind of thing.


Badly behaved protestors have always been around regardless of the back drop here and over there (USA)

 

[berkeman]

Or is it ok to sentence a faculty member to deal with monstrous hills every day while they commute between class and lab?

It's only a couple of miles from the Stanford campus to SLAC, and mostly flat, IIRC.

 

[Andy Resnick]

A. What is the right kind of hooligan?
B. I don't subscribe to the philosophy that if you can't fix everything you can't fix anything.

A) is difficult to answer here, regarding posting guidelines. Let's go with "people (faculty/staff/students) who have key-card access to dangerous materials and become radicalized".

Edit: additionally, "people who can order hazardous materials through the university purchasing system".

 

[Frabjous]

And I would replace the more extreme protestors with ones who will hold hands and sing Kumbaya. But I don't think either is going to happen.

So your solution is billions in new spending. Thanks for joining me in fantasy land.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The government could instruct the victim of crimes (Universities ) to cater for protestors (criminals) lack of health and safety awareness.

They kind of already do. See Bodine v. Enterprise High School. (some details at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_High_School_(Redding,_California). Eighteen-year old goes on a roof to steal a floodlight, steps through a skylight, and is injured. The school is found liable. California changed its laws after this, but there are 49 other states.

Legal liability aside, though, having the university telling the parents of a dead kid "its the kid's own damn fault" would be a PR disaster.

 

[Vanadium 50]

So your solution is billions in new spending. Thanks for joining me in fantasy land.

Why not? Harvard has $50B in the bank.

 

[Frabjous]

Why not? Harvard has $50B in the bank.

They could lose a $100 million in donations and pay a $1 million/per body and still come out way ahead.

 

[gmax137]

Try that at Colorado School of Mines

Are their diplomas carved in stone tablets?

In the case of a small reactor (TRIGA), there security was more restrictive

When I left UVa the nuclear engineering department was in the midst of complying with new stricter regulations for the reactor building. I'm not sure what changes were made. When I was there, we had film badges but I don't remember carding into the building.

work hours! I could sneak out poisons with very little risk of being caught before it was too late.

Given your username, I think maybe we need to worry, lol

BTW, There should be NFPA placards on any labs that have hazardous materials in them. Quizzing the protesters to make sure they know what the placards mean is another issue...

View attachment 346152
https://hmexassistant.com/products/nfpa-704-cas-number/

Here's a view of a non-university lab door. I'd like to think this signage would keep the hooligans out, but who knows?

 

[berkeman]

I'd like to think this signage would keep the hooligans out, but who knows?

Well, unless you're on the team responding to the alarm...

 

[BillTre]

BTW, There should be NFPA placards on any labs that have hazardous materials in them. Quizzing the protesters to make sure they know what the placards mean is another issue...

View attachment 346152
https://hmexassistant.com/products/nfpa-704-cas-number/

I think these are only on external doors, for the responders coming from outside.

 

[berkeman]

I think these are only on external doors, for the responders coming from outside.

Well, sort of. I'm no expert on the matter, but there are plenty of times I've had to watch for such signs and decide whether to enter a building or room. Here is what NFPA says on their summary web page:

Where do signs need to be located?

The placard is meant to provide quick hazard information for emergency responders. It should be visible in case of an emergency where the responders are likely to enter. If there are numerous areas where the responders could enter the facility, there should be numerous placards. The placement and quantity should be decided using a facility’s best judgment coupled with the advice from your AHJ. At a minimum the placard should be posted on the two exterior walls of a facility or building, each access to a room or area, or each principal means of access to an exterior storage area.

https://www.nfpa.org/news-blogs-and-articles/blogs/2021/11/05/hazardous-materials-identification

So for example, a large building may have a main entrance that is all fancy and beautiful for the general public (and first responders may use it sometimes too), but they are not going to put an NFPA placard at that main entrance for aesthetic reasons (especially a placard with high numbers on it). As you make your way into the back of the building into the industrial plant rooms, that's where you will tend to see such placards, where only employees and first responders (and inspectors) will see them.

https://resourcecompliance.com/2022/05/31/iiar-2-2021-nfpa-704/

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are their diplomas carved in stone tablets?

Close. Engraved on silver.

 

[gmax137]

Close. Engraved on silver.

Wow I did not know that!

 

[Vanadium 50]

For those who argued "put a good lock on the door", Stanford Protestors broke into the building with the offices of the president and provost this morning. In this variation on Rock-Paper-Scissors, crowbar beats doorframe.

 

[BillTre]

Was this particularly secure building?
What was the police response time?

 

[Frabjous]

Was this particularly secure building?
What was the police response time?

They broke in at 5:30am amd were arrested in under two hours according to
https://stanforddaily.com/2024/06/0...ing-occupation-of-stanford-presidents-office/

 

[BillTre]

They broke in at 5:30am amd were arrested in under two hours according to
https://stanforddaily.com/2024/06/0...ing-occupation-of-stanford-presidents-office/

Seems kinds of slow.
At the U of Oregon the campus cops were supposed to be able to get to places on campus in ~10 minutes.
But maybe not in enough force.

The article says the cops used the crowbar.

 

[gmax137]

Are there labs in that building?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Was this particularly secure building?

Evidently not.

The article says the cops used the crowbar.

The say they used a crowbar.

The cops came in a back entrance. Photos of the front also show damage to a door. But I think this still reinforces my point - these doors are not intended to keep people out who are willing to damage them. This isn't Fort Knox.

 

[berkeman]

Photos of the front also show damage to a door.

Photos please...

 

[Frabjous]

In the 60’s, the protests were much larger and there were “violent” deaths. How many deaths were caused by accidental exposure to campus research equipment?

 

[BillTre]

In the 60’s, the protests were much larger and there were “violent” deaths. How many deaths were caused by accidental exposure to campus research equipment?

Weren't most of them from the police or national guard?

 

[Rive]

the building with the offices of the president and provost

At least, that's a lot more political than the lab Makes (a bit) more sense.
Well, a bit less non-sense...

What I can't understand is that apparently those with such unstoppable attitude are still students there.
OK, keeping them after busting the offices of top brass would be one (bit political) thing, but the case about the labs kind of expected to make a dent on the numbers and means...

 

[Frabjous]

Weren't most of them from the or national guard?

I believe there were also some bombs. If we cannot come up with significant numbers of deaths from exposure to dangerous scientific equipment in the 1960’s, I feel that this entire scenario is not grounded in reality.

 

[Vanadium 50]

In the 60’s, the protests were much larger

Yes, but the amount of research on campus was much smaller. Some of the more dangerous aspects didn't even exist then - XeF₂ wasn't used to create MEMS until around 2000, and didn't even exist anywhere on the planet until 1962.

I also remain unconvinced by the argument "we're safe - we haven't had a fatality yet". Titan sub? 737MAX? The Great Molasses Flood?

 

[Frabjous]

Yes, but the amount of research on campus was much smaller. Some of the more dangerous aspects didn't even exist then - XeF₂ wasn't used to create MEMS until around 2000, and didn't even exist anywhere on the planet until 1962.

I also remain unconvinced by the argument "we're safe - we haven't had a fatality yet". Titan sub? 737MAX? The Great Molasses Flood?

There is no existential threat. People die every day because of stupidity (their own or others) or just plain bad luck. You have not demonstrated why university protestors need special protections.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Photos please...

The Stanford Daily has some, but focus on the interior. KPIX and other stations have videos with a little more context.

There is no existential threat. People die every day because of stupidity (their own or others) or just plain bad luck.

OK, we'll just wait for a couple incidents. How many should we wait for?