What if the (semi) field characteristic of N is not zero?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the characteristic of a field, particularly in relation to the natural numbers and its implications for summing series, including divergent series and the Riemann zeta function. Participants explore the mathematical validity of grouping natural numbers in different ways and the consequences of such groupings on the sums obtained.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines the characteristic of a field and questions whether the same definition applies to the natural numbers, linking it to the Riemann zeta function.
  • Another participant challenges the grouping of identity elements in the summation, suggesting that arbitrary groupings can lead to different results and questioning the validity of summing infinite series in that manner.
  • A third participant expresses confusion over why changing the grouping of numbers affects their sum, pondering whether it is a convention that affects how terms are perceived.
  • A later reply dismisses the relevance of Ramanujan summation, labeling it as an exotic method not applicable to standard practices.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the validity of summing divergent series and the impact of grouping on the results. There is no consensus on the correctness of the initial claims or the methods discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the potential limitations of their arguments, including the unconventional nature of certain summation methods and the implications of grouping on the sums of series.

Cathr
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By definition, the characteristic of a field is the smallest number of times one must use the ring's multiplicative identity element (1) in a sum to get the additive identity element (0). Can we use the same rule for the set of natural numbers?

If yes, I found a problem, that has something to do with the Riemann zeta function.

If we calculate the sum for an infinity of identity elements, we obtain the sum of all natural numbers: 1+(1+1)+(1+1+1)+(1+1+1+1)+..., and, if we calculate this sum using the Riemann zeta function, we obtain
242b35184f3c25d8af6a1fa0e992a015ca8b07f8
.

Do it 12 times and add one more multiplicative identity - what we obtain is exactly zero.

Does this make sense? Or it is wrong right from the beginning?
 
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Cathr said:
If we calculate the sum for an infinity of identity elements, we obtain the sum of all natural numbers: 1+(1+1)+(1+1+1)+(1+1+1+1)+...,
Why do you group them like that?
There are methods to assign a finite value to divergent series (e. g. Ramanujan summation), but that value changes if you introduce arbitrary groups like that.
Group it as 1+4+9+16+25+... and the Ramanujan sum is 0.
Cathr said:
Do it 12 times and add one more multiplicative identity
You cannot "do an infinite sum 12 times in a row and then plus one" in a meaningful way.
 
I never really understood why changing the way of grooping numbers changes their sum. For me they just have different intervals after which we visibly insert a "+", but they all contain natural numbers that go to infinity. Or is it a convention, which means that we look at each number as a term? Does it mean that 1+4+9+16+25... is "denser" than 1+2+3+4+5... and therefore it has a bigger partial sum?
 
Cathr said:
I never really understood why changing the way of grooping numbers changes their sum.
It is not a proper sum.
Forget Ramanujan summation. It is an exotic method to assign a number to divergent series that you'll never use.
 

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