What is the force that holds atoms together in a substance?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the forces that hold atoms together in a substance, exploring the nature of these forces and their classification as fundamental or non-fundamental. Participants examine the role of electromagnetic interactions and the Pauli exclusion principle in atomic bonding, as well as the conditions under which different atoms may or may not bond.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants identify electromagnetic interactions as the force that holds atoms together, noting it is one of the four fundamental forces.
  • Questions arise regarding why atoms of different substances do not bond, despite sharing electromagnetic interactions.
  • One participant clarifies that molecules can exist between different elements, prompting further inquiry into the specific forces binding atoms of the same substance.
  • Another participant argues that the electron clouds of different atoms must fit together for bonding to occur, referencing the Pauli exclusion principle as a critical factor in atomic interactions.
  • It is noted that the Pauli principle is not a force in the traditional sense, as it does not derive from a potential or involve exchange particles.
  • Participants discuss how temperature affects atomic bonding, with examples of different substances exhibiting varying states at different temperatures.
  • One participant asserts that the electromagnetic force is responsible for holding atoms in a crystal together, while also emphasizing the role of the Pauli principle in preventing atoms from being too close.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the forces involved in atomic bonding, particularly regarding the classification of the Pauli exclusion principle and the conditions under which different atoms bond. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations in the discussion regarding the definitions of forces and the assumptions about atomic interactions, particularly concerning the nature of bonding between different elements and the role of temperature in these processes.

arul_k
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I know of the four fundamental forces ie the strong and weak nuclear forces, gravity and electromagnetism, but what is the force that holds atoms together in a substance and why is this force not considered a fundamental force?
 
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The atoms in a substance are held together because of electromagnetic interactions, which as you point out is one of the four fundamental forces.
 
Why is it then that the atoms of one substance don't bond with those of another, since the electromagnetic interactions between atoms would be common to all atoms
 
So you mean that molecules between different elements don't exist?
 
Last edited:
malawi_glenn said:
So you mean that molecules between different elements don't exist?

I am not speaking of molecular bonding here. My question is regarding the force in any substance that holds the atoms or molecules together. For example what is the force that binds one iron atom with another iron atom and why isn't that same force capable of holding onto an atom or molecule of another substance, like an iron atom will not hold onto a copper atom.
 
iron can bond to copper.

It happens so that the electron clouds must fit, as in Lego roghly speaking. Some atoms electron clouds fits better with some kinds of atoms and worse with others. Thas has to do with the pauli prinicple, that states that no fermin can occupy the same quantum state. This is the thing that prevents the world from collapsing. If we not had the pauli principle, atomic nucleus would not exist, and all eletrons would be in lowest state and so on. The pauli principle is not a force, science it does not comes from a potentail, nor it has exchange particles transmitting the field quanta.

And then you of course have competing forces in atom-bonding; at some temperatures atoms bond togheter and form a solid (helium becomes solid at very very low temperatures but mercury is liquid at room temperature)

The force that holds atoms in a crystal togheter is electromagnetic force, and the principle that prevents atoms to beeing to close (actually certain electron states) is the Pauli principle.
 

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