What is the frequency spectrum for a single photon?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the frequency spectrum of a single photon, exploring concepts related to quantum mechanics, light pulses, and the nature of photons. Participants examine the implications of treating photons as short light pulses versus their representation in quantum theory, including Fock states and energy eigenstates.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that according to the Einstein light-quantum hypothesis, photon energy is related to frequency, but question how this applies to very short light pulses.
  • Others clarify that a very short light pulse consists of multiple photons emitted simultaneously, emphasizing that photon number relates to intensity and is not conserved in most sources.
  • It is noted that single photons can exhibit a frequency spread, behaving statistically, but the implications of Fourier analysis in this context are debated.
  • Some participants argue that a single photon is associated with a single frequency, raising questions about the relevance of Fourier analysis for such a photon.
  • There is a contention regarding the classical versus quantum interpretation of photons, with some insisting that photons cannot be accurately described as finite length pulses.
  • One participant mentions that a single photon can exist in a superposition of energy eigenstates, allowing for the creation of single-photon wave packets with finite extent in time and space.
  • Discussions include the complexity of photons in quantum mechanics, referencing gauge invariance and the lack of a proper position operator for photons.
  • Some participants express confusion over the terminology used in literature, distinguishing between classical light pulses and modern concepts of single photons as non-classical states.
  • Concerns are raised about the lack of consensus on the nature of photons, including their representation as point-like particles or waves in the context of the Standard Model of particle physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the nature of single photons, with multiple competing views regarding their frequency spectrum, representation, and the applicability of classical concepts. The discussion remains unresolved with ongoing debate about terminology and interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding due to the dependence on definitions and the complexity of quantum mechanics. There are unresolved questions about the relationship between classical and quantum descriptions of photons.

phys12345
Messages
20
Reaction score
0
According to the Einstein light-quantum hypothsis, the photon energy is given by E = hbar*ω. If taking the photon as a very short light pulse, then the frequency spectrum is extremely wide in terms of Fourier-transform theory. How to understand the frequency ω in E = hbar*ω if taking the photon as a very short light pulse?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
A very short light pulse is a bunch of photons emitted at the same time. It is not a single photon. Photon number is related to intensity. Also, photon number is not conserved for most sources. You need a Fock state source to think about photon number, but then you lose phase information.

However, yes, there is a frequency spread in single photon sources. The single photons would then behave statistically.
 
chill_factor said:
A very short light pulse is a bunch of photons emitted at the same time. It is not a single photon. Photon number is related to intensity. Also, photon number is not conserved for most sources. You need a Fock state source to think about photon number, but then you lose phase information.

However, yes, there is a frequency spread in single photon sources. The single photons would then behave statistically.

Thanks. But they say nowadays a single photon can be produced and detected.
"there is a frequency spread" for a single-photon packet ---- Is that what you mean?

"The single photons would then behave statistically." ---- Is Fourier-analysis not applicable or what?

A single photon in free space has a space length?
 
Last edited:
phys12345 said:
"The single photons would then behave statistically." ---- Is Fourier-analysis not applicable or what?

A single photon is associated with a single frequency, which is its energy. What is a Fourier analysis going to do for you?
 
DiracPool said:
A single photon is associated with a single frequency, which is its energy. What is a Fourier analysis going to do for you?

What I mean is that if the single photon can be taken a finite length pulse, its frequency spectrum is extremely wide according to the Fourier transform. Then the photon pulse is made up of many monochromatic plane waves --- of course, this is a classical understanding.
 
You are thinking classically. A photon is not a finite length pulse of classical EM. A photon is a Fock state, and there isn't a classical analoge to a Fock state like there is for a coherent state.
 
DaleSpam said:
You are thinking classically. A photon is not a finite length pulse of classical EM. A photon is a Fock state, and there isn't a classical analoge to a Fock state like there is for a coherent state.

They say a single photon can be produced and detected nowadays. If just for a single photon, "coherence" is not applicable, I guess. Probably there is no concept about the size of photon and it cannot be taken as a short light pulse or wave packet. But I see some literature where the photon is taken as a short light pulse, which really confused me.
 
A single photon is represented by any one-particle Fock state with definite norm. Thus it can have any frequency spectrum you like. Of course you cannot in any way think about it in classical terms as has been stressed before in this thread. Photons are pretty complicated beasts, not only mathematically (because of gauge invariance you have a quite complicated construction of the positive-norm Hilbert space, e.g., in terms of the Gupta-Bleuler formalism or you write it in a completely fixed gauge known as the radiation gauge, but then the representation is not manifestly Poincare covariant anymore) but also concerning the physical intuition. Contrary to the case of massive particles, e.g., there is no proper operator for the "position of a photon".
 
As vanhees71 points out, a single photon can be in a superposition of energy eigenstates, just like an electron. Thus it is possible to create a single-photon wave packet with finite extent in time (and space).

I don't think it's all that complicated. In radiation gauge (AKA Couloumb gauge or transverse gauge), everything is pretty straightforward. Spacetime translation invariance is manifest. Only Lorentz invariance is hidden.

See Mandel & Wolf's text on quantum optics for details.
 
Last edited:
  • #10
DiracPool said:
A single photon is associated with a single frequency, which is its energy.?

This is very old terminology where the modes of the spectral decomposition were termed photons.

As has been pointed out, this has absolutely nothing to do with the more "modern" concept of single photons which are non-classical photon number states and can have almost any spectral, temporal or spatial shape.
 
  • #11
There is no energy eigenstate of (free) photons. There is a generalized eigenstate, which is the plane wave, but that's not square integrable. You have to smear over a finite energy range to get a true single-photon state.
 
  • #12
Cthugha said:
This is very old terminology where the modes of the spectral decomposition were termed photons.

As has been pointed out, this has absolutely nothing to do with the more "modern" concept of single photons which are non-classical photon number states and can have almost any spectral, temporal or spatial shape.

Holy Fock! I guess so, I need to get with the times. I know what I'm doing this weekend :-p
 
  • #13
phys12345 said:
I see some literature where the photon is taken as a short light pulse, which really confused me.
Yes, unfortunately there are a lot of examples of people saying the quantum word "photon" when they actually mean the classical idea of a "light pulse". It is sloppy, incorrect, and misleading.
 
  • #14
You can tell from the above there is no simple answer...more discussion here:

How Big is a Photon??
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=657264

but no distinct precise answer.

One thing we can say is that in the Standard Model of particle physics, photons are point like particles. In free space they exist as infinite length waves, but there is no true 'free space'...there is always something to interact with...

We don't even have consensus on whether the universe consists of waves or their quanta, particles...I posted something about that in the linked thread, from Carlo Rovelli...
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
  • · Replies 78 ·
3
Replies
78
Views
7K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
839
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K