What is the smallest possible state change in the Universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of the smallest possible state change in the universe, exploring what constitutes a fundamental state change, how it can be defined, and whether science has established any parameters or units for such changes. Participants express uncertainty regarding the simplicity or complexity of the answer and the nature of state changes, including information theory and time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the question is too vague to provide a definitive answer, indicating that it could involve transitions between true and false states.
  • There is a proposal that multiple bits or even an infinite number of bits could represent state changes.
  • One participant questions whether physicists consider infinitesimal changes in time as the most fundamental change.
  • Another participant emphasizes the need for a clear definition of the "state of the universe," suggesting that the smallest bit of information, such as an electron transitioning from bounded to free, could be relevant.
  • Shannon entropy is mentioned as a concept related to the number of states a variable can represent, with a suggestion that information changes are fundamental to understanding state changes.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between information changes and time, questioning whether time influences information changes.
  • One participant proposes that considering every particle in the universe as a random variable with discrete states could provide a framework for defining state changes, while acknowledging the limitations of current understanding.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the vagueness of the original question and the nature of state changes. There is no consensus on a clear definition or understanding of the smallest possible state change in the universe, with multiple competing perspectives remaining unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in defining the state of the universe and the implications of information theory, as well as the challenges posed by concepts such as black holes and vacuums.

Chenkel
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TL;DR
I am curious about the type and quality of the fundamental state change in the universe.
Hello everyone!

I was wondering what is the fundamental state change in the universe? I.E the universe is in one state, then it goes into another state, what is the state change?

Has science determined what it is?

Do we know the dimensional units of the quantity?

I'm not sure if this has a simple answer, an advanced answer, or if the answer is unknown.

Let me know what you think, thank you!
 
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Chenkel said:
Summary: I am curious about the type and quality of the fundamental state change in the universe.

Hello everyone!

I was wondering what is the fundamental state change in the universe? I.E the universe is in one state, then it goes into another state, what is the state change?

Has science determined what it is?

Do we know the dimensional units of the quantity?

I'm not sure if this has a simple answer, an advanced answer, or if the answer is unknown.

Let me know what you think, thank you!
This is far too vague to be answered. I'd say it is a bit. Something turned from true to false or vice versa.
 
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fresh_42 said:
This is far too vague to be answered. I'd say it is a bit. Something turned from true to false or vice versa.
Could it be multiple bits? An infinite number of bits?

Do physicists ever treat an infinitesimal change in time as the most fundamental change?
 
Chenkel said:
Could it be multiple bits? An infinite number of bits?

Do physicists ever treat an infinitesimal change in time as the most fundamental change?
See, that is the problem with your question. How do you define the state of the universe? There are many things that could and do change all the time. Hence, as you only said 'state' and 'smallest', I thought of information. And the smallest bit of information is a bit, e.g. an electron that turns from bounded to free, the atom to an ion.

Look up: Shannon entropy.
 
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fresh_42 said:
See, that is the problem with your question. How do you define the state of the universe? There are many things that could and do change all the time. Hence, as you only said 'state' and 'smallest', I thought of information. And the smallest bit of information is a bit, e.g. an electron that turns from bounded to free, the atom to an ion.

Look up: Shannon entropy.
Sounds like Shannon Entropy is the number of states that a variable can represent, i.e a 8 bit number can represent 2^8 = 256 different states.

It seems you're saying at the very least information is changing. Has this been proven?

If information is changing relative to time, how do we know time didn't change information?

If I am in a tiny container for a very long time, and I want to press a button to get out, the information changing the button from off to on may be a function of my patience.
 
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Chenkel said:
Sounds like Shannon Entropy is the number of states that a variable can represent, i.e a 8 bit number can represent 2^8 = 256 different states.

It seems you're saying at the very least information is changing. Has this been proven?

If information is changing relative to time, how do we know time didn't change information?

If I am in a tiny container for a very long time, and I want to press a button to get out, the information changing the button from off to on may be a function of my patience.
As I already mentioned, your question is unanswerable due to its vagueness. Information and Shannon entropy is the least common denominator. You can consider every single particle in the universe as a random variable with discrete states and all together define the change of the universe. This would at least be a definition to work with. Its limits are the limits of our current understanding, e.g. black holes or the concept of a vacuum.

This thread remains closed.
 
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