What is the true nature of dark energy and its gravitational effects?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of dark energy, its gravitational effects, and its relationship with mass and energy as described by General Relativity. Participants explore theoretical implications, mathematical relationships, and conceptual understandings related to dark energy, including its energy density and negative pressure.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants reference an article stating that dark energy is detected through its gravitational effects, noting that it constitutes a significant portion of the universe alongside dark matter.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of E=mc², with some arguing that mass is a form of energy and that all forms of energy, including dark energy, warp spacetime.
  • Questions arise regarding the nature of energy particles like photons, which have zero rest mass but still possess energy and are affected by gravity.
  • One participant suggests that dark energy may act as an effective anti-gravity due to its negative pressure, raising questions about whether it implies negative mass.
  • Equations related to the Friedmann equations are introduced, with participants discussing the implications of dark energy's energy density and its potential effective mass.
  • There are uncertainties expressed about the sign of energy density and pressure in relation to dark energy, and how these factors influence gravitational effects and cosmic expansion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the nature of dark energy and its gravitational effects, with no consensus reached on its implications, the sign of its effective mass, or the relationship between energy density and pressure.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their understanding of the implications of equations related to dark energy, particularly regarding the signs of energy density and pressure, and how these relate to gravitational effects.

McHeathen
Messages
32
Reaction score
0
According to an article on the CERN website 'dark energy' is detected by its 'gravitational effect':
Most of the Universe is made up of invisible substances known as 'dark matter' (26%) and 'dark energy' (70%). These do not emit electromagnetic radiation, and we detect them only through their gravitational effects.
http://public.web.cern.ch/public/en/...Recipe-en.html

If E=mc2, then mass would appear to be formed from a concentration of energy. Yet a quantity of energy does have mass - so how can it have gravity?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Astronomy news on Phys.org
McHeathen said:
If E=mc2, then mass would appear to be formed from a concentration of energy. Yet a quantity of energy does have mass - so how can it have gravity?

Our best description of gravity is General Relativity. Within this framework, mass/energy tells spacetime how to warp, and spacetime tells mass/energy how to move. Mass isn't "formed from a concentration of energy," it is a form of energy. Energy can have plenty of different forms, and all of them (including dark energy) warp spacetime.
 
neutralseer said:
Our best description of gravity is General Relativity. Within this framework, mass/energy tells spacetime how to warp, and spacetime tells mass/energy how to move. Mass isn't "formed from a concentration of energy," it is a form of energy. Energy can have plenty of different forms, and all of them (including dark energy) warp spacetime.

If this be the case, then why do energy particles such as photons (are there any other type of energy particle?) have zero mass?
 
Yes they have zero rest mass, but they don't have zero energy. Anything with energy is affected by gravity and causes gravity (mass or energy warp spacetime, and spacetime tell mass/energy how to move).
 
neutralseer said:
Yes they have zero rest mass, but they don't have zero energy. Anything with energy is affected by gravity and causes gravity (mass or energy warp spacetime, and spacetime tell mass/energy how to move).

Light waves being pulled/defected towards/by a star would be a good example of energy being effected by gravity. However there are no examples (to the best of my knowledge) of bodies of mass being pulled towards energy.
 
Hi McHeathen,
I am also looking for some answers about dark energy in terms of its energy density, negative pressure and any gravitational effects, so I hope you don’t mind if I append some additional issues to yours.

From general reading I get the impression that dark energy acts as an effective anti-gravity in that it is said to expand space and push things apart by virtue of its negative pressure. However, I am not sure whether this implies that dark energy is also negative, i.e. like potential energy (?), therefore has negative effective mass by virtue of E=mc^2 and negative pressure is really the net result of anti-gravity?

I have appended some equations and issues linked to the Wikipedia page on the Friedmann equations for further reference and clarification. Thanks


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedmann_equations
On the assumption that dark energy equates to the cosmological constant in the Friedmann equation, it seems possible to make the following assumptions about its energy density based on the equivalence of units in the Friedmann equation, i.e.

[1] [tex]\rho_\Lambda \equiv \frac {\Lambda c^2}{8 \pi G}[/tex]

As an aside, the units of Lambda are 1/metres^2, does this suggest some correlation to the radius of the visible universe (?)

Given that energy density is energy per unit volume and any energy can be equated to mass via Einstein’s equation, does this suggests that dark energy must have some sort of effective mass? However, I am not sure whether this scalar quantity is considered positive or negative, especially in light of the following pressure and energy density relationship?

[2] [tex]P = \omega \rho c^2[/tex] where [tex]\omega_\Lambda= -1[/tex]

Equation [1] allows the cosmological constant in Friedmann’s equation to be replaced by an equivalent energy density. E=mc^2 suggests that dark energy must have an effective mass by virtue of its energy density and therefore some sort of gravitational effect, but I am not sure of the sign of this energy. In contrast, equation [2] seems to suggest that the energy density and pressure must be of different sign due to the sign of omega [w].

Consequently, I am having problems resolving the implied direction of [H] in the Friedman equation plus similar problems with the Fluid equation, which only references energy density with no direct inference to pressure. The Acceleration equation is offset by a pressure factor [tex][\rho + 3P][/tex] that seems to allow [-P] to overcome energy density giving a net positive acceleration, however I am not sure that I have a clear picture as to what is really implied here.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K