What was the reaction for pion production during the observation of antiprotons?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the pion production reaction observed during the antiproton production experiment conducted in 1955 at Berkeley. Participants explore the reactions involved in pion production, the significance of specific momentum values, and the properties of antiprotons compared to protons, delving into both theoretical calculations and experimental observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that pion production occurs frequently in high-energy hadronic collisions due to the lower mass of pions compared to protons, leading to reactions such as p p → p p + multiple pions.
  • There is a discussion about the momentum of negative particles scattered at 21° from the Bevatron beam, with some suggesting that the momentum value of 1.19 GeV/c may not correspond directly to the threshold for antiproton production.
  • One participant attempts to calculate the threshold kinetic energy and momentum theoretically, but questions arise regarding discrepancies between their calculations and the observed values.
  • Participants discuss the differences between protons and antiprotons, including electric charge, magnetic moment, and quark structure, with some questioning whether antiprotons exhibit the same weak force behavior as protons.
  • There is a humorous exchange regarding the concept of antiprotons traveling backwards in time, which is clarified as a joke, but it leads to a discussion about the implications of negative energy and its relation to antimatter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the reactions involved in pion production and the properties of antiprotons, with no clear consensus reached on the theoretical calculations or the implications of certain properties of antimatter.

Contextual Notes

Some calculations presented rely on specific assumptions about energy and momentum conservation, and there are unresolved questions regarding the exact nature of the reactions and the implications of the observed momentum values.

Physteo
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Hello guys.
I am studying the experiment conducted by Chamberlain, Segrè, Wiegand and Ypsilantis in 1955 at Berkeley (using the Bevatron) to observe antiprotons.
Here is the article: http://escholarship.org/uc/item/46p0z8w7#page-3

I have some questions.
1) While the desired reaction of proton to copper-proton target was
p p → p p p p'
there is a strong background of Pion production. Why? And what is the reaction for the pion production?

2) You can read at the bottom of page 3, that negative particles scattered at 21° from the bevatron beam have a momentum of 1.19 Bev/c.
Why?

I can attempt to answer just question 1: Pions are lighter than proton, so the threshold is lower. The reaction I figured out was
p n → π- p p


Thanks!
 
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1) While the desired reaction of proton to copper-proton target was
p p → p p p p'
there is a strong background of Pion production. Why? And what is the reaction for the pion production?
p p -> p p + multiple pions (1, 2, 3, ...)
p p -> p λ K + multiple pions and similar reactions are possible, too.
Pions are a frequent product in all hadronic high-energy collisions, as they are very light.

2) You can read at the bottom of page 3, that negative particles scattered at 21° from the bevatron beam have a momentum of 1.19 Bev/c.
Why?
If they have a lower momentum, they are bent more, if they have a higher momentum, they are bent less. The numbers depend on the geometry of the setup - mainly the field strength and its size.
 
Great :) Thanks for the quick reply!
But I have a further question. Why do they choose exactly 1.19 GeV/c ? I guess this corresponds to the threshold momentum expected for p'. But how can I compute this theoretically?

I computed the threshold kinetic energy of the incident proton, and this is K = 6*m (where m is the mass of the proton, and I am setting c = 1). So the threshold energy is
E = K + m = 7m = 6568.1 MeV
the momentum is then
<br /> p = (E^2 - m^2)^{\frac{1}{2}} = 6500.7 MeV/c<br />
for the conservation law of the momentum, if the final protons and the antiprotons are threshold-produced, their momentum should be
<br /> p/4 = 1625 MeV/c<br />
But this is different from 1.19 Gev/c.
Where's the problem?
 
In the paper, they get 5.6 GeV kinetic energy for the threshold. There is your difference.

Apart from that, 1.18 GeV could be an arbitrary value, it does not have to be the antiproton momentum at threshold. Usually, energies a bit higher than that give a better cross-section (=>more antiprotons).
 
For my clarification. Would it be correct that we know experimentally that the antimatter proton has opposite electric charge, AND opposite spin for magnetic moment (i.e., negative for both), compared to the matter proton ? Are there any other differences ?

Edit: Of course one other difference within nucleus is that the antiproton \bar{p} has (\bar{u}\bar{u}\bar{d}) quark structure, whereas {p} has (uud).

So, the antiproton differs from proton in at least three different fundamental ways, two related to EM force and a second to STRONG force.

Question ? Does the antiproton show opposite beta decay WEAK force behavior to proton ? We know that matter {p} beta plus decays to a neutron, β+, and matter neutrino v. Does antiproton \bar{p} show this same WEAK force beta plus decay pattern ?
 
Last edited:
What do you mean with "negative spin"? Its isospin (with a meaningful sign) is reversed, but that is just a fancy name for the quark content.
Are there any other differences ?
All other charges and quantum numbers are reversed, too.
 
Salman2 said:
For my clarification. Would it be correct that we know experimentally that the antimatter proton has opposite electric charge, AND opposite spin for magnetic moment (i.e., negative for both), compared to the matter proton ? Are there any other differences ?
Don't forget the most important difference -- the antiproton travels backwards in time! (Just kidding)
 
mfb said:
What do you mean with "negative spin"?
I mean what Gabrielse from CERN had to say about the spin related to the magnetic moment of the antiproton, as copy below from this link:

www.physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2013/apr/08/atrap-nails-down-the-antiprotons-magnetic-moment

""Nevertheless, the team found that the magnetic moments of the antiproton and proton are "exactly opposite" – that is, equal in strength but opposite in direction with respect to the particle spins. "Here, exactly opposite means that the direction that the [magnetic moment] points with respect to the particle's internal spin is opposite to that of the proton, but the size of the [magnetic moment] is the same," says Gabrielse.""
 
The relative orientation between spin and magnetic moment is different, right.
 
  • #10
Bill_K said:
Don't forget the most important difference -- the antiproton travels backwards in time! (Just kidding)
Suppose two moments A and B, and they are connected by arrow of space-time relative to both, A <----> B. Suppose a matter proton with positive energy moving in space-time, the diagram would be: A ---{p}---> B. Now, suppose an antimatter proton with negative energy, would not the diagram be: A <---\bar{p}--- B ? Is this not predicted by Einstein SR equation ? Please note, I'm not suggesting negative energy exists, only that it is predicted iff it is a property of antimatter.
 
  • #11
Sorry Salman2, please note my comment was intended as a joke. :redface: Negative energy states do not exist, and no particle of any kind travels backwards in time. We've discussed this many times here, so let's not do it all over again. Suggest you search for earlier threads on this.
 

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