When Does Particle Population Size Shift from Microscopic to Macroscopic?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the transition from microscopic to macroscopic particle populations, particularly in the context of thermodynamics, quantum chemistry, and nanotechnology. Participants explore the criteria and considerations that determine when a collection of particles can be treated as a bulk population rather than as individual entities, emphasizing the implications for various scientific fields.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that in biology and optics, the distinction between macroscopic and microscopic is based on visibility to the unaided eye versus the need for magnification.
  • One participant recalls a study from the 1980s that suggested a specific threshold (100 units) for considering a crystal as bulk for a particular property, indicating that this question has historical context.
  • Another viewpoint suggests that finite-size effects can be analyzed through power series expansions around the thermodynamic limit, which may provide insight into the transition between scales.
  • It is mentioned that traditional engineering thermodynamics typically involves collections of approximately 10^23 molecules, where individual particle effects are negligible.
  • A participant discusses the implications of particle size in nanotechnology, highlighting how properties can differ significantly at the nanoscale, using nanoscale gold as an example of altered optical characteristics.
  • There is a reference to a criterion based on fluctuations in thermodynamic properties, suggesting a statistical-mechanical approach to understanding the transition in particle population size.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various perspectives on the criteria for distinguishing between microscopic and macroscopic populations, with no consensus reached on a definitive threshold or approach. The discussion remains open-ended with multiple competing views.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of a universally accepted definition of particle population size transition and the dependence on specific properties and contexts, which may vary across different scientific disciplines.

BillTre
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In biology and optics, macroscopic and microscopic are distinguished by being large enough (or not) to be seen by the unaided eye (or almost), vs. requiring a microscope rather than just a hand lens (or macrolense).
Fairly small things (like paramecia) can be easily seen without a microscope, depending on the lighting and other aspects of the setting.

In physics (as I understand it) these terms are used to distinguish between the thermodynamically driven behavior of large populations of particles (like a population of gas molecules) vs. the detailed behavior of each individual particle (microscopic; very data intensive).

What are the considerations with respect to this thermodynamics view, on when an increasing number of particles (particle population size) result in it being more appropriate to consider them as a population of particles rather than a collection of several single particles, each with its own distinguishable behavior?

Not expecting a sharp cut-off.
 
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Back in eighties a friend of mine as part of his MSc thesis in quantum chemistry tried to calculate how some selected property changed with the size. Sadly the only thing I remember is that the conclusion was "for this particular substance, for this particular property, for this particular approach crystal larger than made of 100 units can be considered bulk".

So at least the question isn't new :wink:
 
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I suppose one way that has been taken is to ask about the magnitude of finite-size effects. Calculations in this vein are usually done in increasing powers of inverse volume. Sort of a power series around the thermodynamic limit.
 
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normal engineering thermodynamics (tanks of gas, heat engines built with cylinders and pistons) consider collections of ~10^23 molecules. That's why it works: the numbers are so inconceivably large that no individual effects remain.
 
This concenpt gets discussed in chemistry in the context of nanotechnology (and how at small enough size scales, the properties of substances can be very different from the bulk material). For example,
Nanoscale gold illustrates the unique properties that occur at the nanoscale. Nanoscale gold particles are not the yellow color with which we are familiar; nanoscale gold can appear red or purple. At the nanoscale, the motion of the gold’s electrons is confined. Because this movement is restricted, gold nanoparticles react differently with light compared to larger-scale gold particles.
https://www.nano.gov/nanotech-101/special

Perhaps the site cited above and other similar texts on nanotechnology could be good sources to consult on this issue.
 
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BillTre said:
What are the considerations with respect to this thermodynamics view, on when an increasing number of particles (particle population size) result in it being more appropriate to consider them as a population of particles rather than a collection of several single particles, each with its own distinguishable behavior?

A rough criterion takes into account the size of fluctuations in the thermodynamic properties of interest that follow from the statistical-mechanical approach: http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/sm1/lectures/node8.html
 

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