Why Can't I Show the Simple Identity for the Spin-1 Operator in This Paper?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a technical problem related to demonstrating an identity for the non-abelian fluctuation operator as presented in a specific paper. Participants are examining the mathematical steps involved in manipulating the operator and addressing issues related to indices and the properties of covariant derivatives.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an identity involving the non-abelian fluctuation operator and expresses difficulty in eliminating an unwanted term in their calculations.
  • Another participant questions the derivation of the left-hand side of the identity, pointing out potential issues with index notation.
  • A subsequent post acknowledges a typo in the identity and clarifies that the discussion is taking place in Euclidean spacetime, which simplifies some index concerns.
  • One participant challenges the correctness of an earlier expression, noting a discrepancy between tensor and vector forms in the context of the identity.
  • Another participant provides insights into the behavior of the covariant derivative, discussing its distributive property depending on whether the test function is matrix-valued or a c-number function.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the distributive nature of the covariant derivative and attempts to clarify their understanding through a series of calculations, ultimately realizing an error in their reasoning.
  • The final post indicates that the participant has resolved their confusion and acknowledges the correctness of the earlier contributions regarding the product rule of the covariant derivative.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

While there is some agreement on the properties of the covariant derivative and the resolution of the identity, earlier posts reflect confusion and disagreement regarding the mathematical steps and index notation. The discussion includes multiple perspectives on the derivation process, and the final resolution is reached by one participant without consensus on all points raised.

Contextual Notes

Participants note various limitations in their mathematical expressions, including typos and index handling, which contribute to the complexity of the discussion. The context of working in Euclidean spacetime is also highlighted as relevant to the discussion.

TriTertButoxy
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I have a simple technical problem. I'm following a paper [Shore, G. Ann Phys. 137, 262-305 (1981)], and I am unable to show a very simple identity for the non-abelian fluctuation operator (eq 4.37):

D_\mu\left[-D^2\delta_{\mu\nu}+D_\mu D_\nu-2F_{\mu\nu}\right]\,\phi=-(D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\,\phi , (typo fixed)​

where \phi is a test function and (F_{\mu\nu})^{ab}\equiv gf^{abc}F_{\mu\nu}^{c}=[D_\mu,\,D_\nu], and hence D_\mu F_{\mu\nu}=D^2D_\nu-D_\mu D_\nu D_\mu (color indices suppressed). So far, I have worked on the LHS, and I'm almost there:

\text{LHS}=(-D_\nu D^2+D^2 D_\nu-2D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi[/itex]<br /> \phantom{LHS}=(-\underline{D_\mu D_\nu D_\mu}-[D_\nu,\,D_\mu]D_\mu+\underline{D^2D_\nu}-2D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi<br /> combine underlined terms using identity stated above<br /> =(-[D_\nu,\,D_\mu]D_\mu+D_\mu F_{\mu\nu}-2D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi<br /> then first term is -[D_\nu,\,D_\mu]D_\mu=+F_{\mu\nu}D_\mu, and 2nd and 3rd terms add<br /> =(F_{\mu\nu}D_\mu-D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi<br /> Finally, use product rule in 2nd term: D_\mu(fg)=(D_\mu f)g+f\partial_\mu g.<br /> =F_{\mu\nu}(\partial+A)_\mu\phi-(D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi-F_{\mu\nu}\,\partial_\mu\phi<br /> to get<br /> =F_{\mu\nu} A_\mu \phi-(D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi.<br /> <br /> This is <i>almost</i> equal to RHS, except for that stupid A_\mu term. How the hell do I get rid of it?!?
 
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<br /> \text{LHS}=(-D_\nu D^2+D^2 D_\nu-2D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi<br />

how did you get this from
<br /> D_\mu\left[-D^2\delta_{\mu\nu}+D_\mu D_\nu-2D_\mu F_{\mu\nu}\right]<br />

??

be careful with that last term in the square bracket, you have in total three mu index... also be carefull with upper and lower index.
 
There's a typo in my post. The identity should read:

D_\mu\left[-D^2\delta_{\mu\nu}+D_\mu D_\nu-2F_{\mu\nu}\right]\,\phi=-(D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\,\phi

otherwise, the dimensions (and indices) don't work.
Also, I'm in Euclidean spacetime, where I don't need to worry about upper and lower indices.
I'm still stuck.
 
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[D_\mu,\,D_\nu]=D^2D_\nu-D_\mu D_\nu D_\mu

Clearly, this is wrong, do you know why? you have a tensor on the LHS (which should be just F_{\mu\nu}) and vector on the RHS (which is \D_{\mu}F_{\mu\nu}).

regards

sam
 
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Whoops! Another typo. The identity should have read
D_\mu F_{\mu\nu}=D^2D_\nu-D_\mu D_\nu D_\mu. I'm fixing this in my original post.
I'm still stuck.
 
If your test function takes values in the lie algebra of the gauge group,i.e., matrix-valued function;\Phi = \phi^{a}T^{a}, then

D_{\mu}\Phi = \partial_{\mu}\Phi + [A_{\mu},\Phi]

If it is a c-number function, then

D_{\mu}\Phi = \partial_{\mu}\Phi

In both cases, the covariant derivative is distributive;

<br /> D_{\mu}(F_{\mu\nu}\Phi) = (D_{\mu}F_{\mu\nu})\Phi + F_{\mu\nu}D_{\mu}\Phi<br />

So, your LHS is equal to -(D_{\mu}F_{\mu\nu})\Phi

regards

sam
 
This is very helpful, but I don't quite understand. Naïvely, I would expect the covariant derivative not to be distributive because the vector potential, A_\mu is not an object that behaves like the derivative.

If my test function were a column vector, shouldn't I have
D_\mu(F_{\mu\nu}\phi)
=(\partial+A)_\mu(F_{\mu\nu}\phi)
=(\partial_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi+F_{\mu\nu}\partial_\mu\phi+A_\mu F_{\mu\nu}\phi
=(D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi+F_{\mu\nu}\partial_\mu\phi <-- (this is wrong: see edit below)

Where did I go wrong in the maths? If you are right, then wouldn't the maths tell me so?

--EDIT--

Never mind! I now realized where I went wrong.
The last step in this post is wrong. I must add and subtract F_{\mu\nu}A_\mu\phi, so that
=(\partial_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi+F_{\mu\nu}\partial_\mu\phi+A_\mu F_{\mu\nu}\phi-F_{\mu\nu}A_\mu\phi+F_{\mu\nu}A_\mu\phi
=(\partial_\mu F_{\mu\nu}+[A_\mu,\,F_{\mu\nu}])\phi+F_{\mu\nu}(\partial_\mu+A_\mu)\phi
=(D_\mu F_{\mu\nu})\phi+F_{\mu\nu}D_\mu\phi

So, samalkhaiat is right: the covariant derivative obeys the product rule, and hence the identity in the first post is shown to be true. Case closed.

Thanks, all!
 
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