Why does velocity not vary with distance within 10 Mpc?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the observation that the velocity of distant objects does not appear to vary with distance within 10 Mpc, contrary to expectations based on cosmological expansion. Participants explore the implications of this observation using data from Harvard's zcat and discuss potential reasons for the observed behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes that their graph shows velocity beginning to increase with distance only after 10 Mpc, which contradicts expectations from Hubble's law.
  • Another participant introduces the concept of peculiar velocity, suggesting that for nearby galaxies, this relative motion can mask the effects of cosmological expansion.
  • A different participant points out that the data exhibits unusual characteristics, with a linear region where velocity is not proportional to distance and significant deviations in some data points.
  • Another response emphasizes that the velocities in the graph appear too large and references Hubble's law to provide a context for expected values.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about the reliability of the data from the zcat, despite its source being a reputable institution, and questions whether there are underlying factors affecting the observed velocities.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus; multiple competing views and uncertainties regarding the data and its interpretation remain evident throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight potential limitations in the data, including the influence of peculiar velocities and the accuracy of the plotted velocities relative to Hubble's law. There are also indications that the graph may not accurately represent the expected relationship between velocity and distance.

em370
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For a science project I used Harvard's zcat data to construct a graph in excel of the velocity and distance of distant objects. I expected velocity to increase with distance due to the expansion of space but it seemed to only begin once the object was 10 Mpc from Earth. I included the graph but it is very small due to file size restrictions.
 

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Well, all galaxies have a relative motion through space relative to the Milky Way. In the field this is called a peculiar velocity. In particular, it's meant to be distinguished from the speed inferred from cosmological expansion. For objects close to home, the peculiar velocity may be similar in magnitude to the speed inferred from Hubble's law. Only once we get to cosmological distance scales does this stop being true (since most galaxies move at most at speeds of several hundred km/s in clusters).
 
While the response from Steely Dan is true, the actual data looks really weird.
- at the linear part, velocity is not proportional to distance
- in our universe there is nothing magic at 10 Mpc, the region at 11Mpc is similar to the region at 9Mpc. However, the graph shows two regions which are completely different.
- compared to the small deviations of most of the data points, there are a few points which are really off, up to 3-4% c (as deviation to the line).
 
Both responses are good ones above. Just wanted to add that there seems to be lots wrong with your plot---the velocities are also way too large. Remember Hubble's law:
[tex]v \approx H_0 d \approx 70 \textrm{ km/s} \left( \frac{d}{1 \textrm{ Mpc} } \right)[/tex]
 
I took all of the data from this website https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/~dfabricant/huchra/zcat/ so I can't vouch for how the testing was done but harvard is a reputable university. I did notice that the line was shifted upwards quite a bit but I thought whatever may be forcing objects within 10 Mpc to not vary with distance may also be responsible for that. Also, the section of data outside 10 Mpc gives hubbles constant as about 72 km/s per Mpc which is fairly accurate along with a high initial velocity at 0 Mpc, which according to posters is not accurate. The velocity measurements are recorded as observed at Earth based on redshift. I feel like I must be missing something because the data come straight from the zcat and I doubt a distinguished college would publish something if the velocity data was off by a large amount.
 

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